I'm no body language expert but crossed arms while conversing with someone is considered rude and unapproachable.

well, you're right. you're no expert

I mean really DiM

Soren wrote:I mean really DiM

I'm just messing.

The Nightman Cometh wrote:the fact that 5 people who worked with or under Howie on personnel have been fired since he was GM or a higher title.

Who are these five?

I don't get how other people getting fired is some indictment of Howie. Have these awesome football men gone on to put together Super Bowl teams or something? It's so funny that people are acting like Joe Banner was this excellent executive when he was so disliked while he was here. I mean, we're still making fun of the "gold standard" comment out of context and people are associating it with the Howie regime when it was a Banner term.

That said, I still probably would have fired him, but I get that it's probably tough to start from square one completely by yourself.

Grotewold wrote:

The Nightman Cometh wrote:the fact that 5 people who worked with or under Howie on personnel have been fired since he was GM or a higher title.

Who are these five?

Banner, Reid, Gamble, Chip, Marynowitz (was in the organization before Chip)

Doll Is Mine wrote:

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:My buddy knows Howie because their kids are friends. He says Howie is a really nice guy. Obviously a different environment than the front office of an NFL team but it's not like he's this horrible human being that everyone hates except Lurie.

Honestly, how much more do we need to hear from Jeff McLane "sources"? He's a terrible beat reporter who doesn't even understand football. The Chip calling LeSean made-up story should've gotten him fired.

What's sad is many people here bought into the narrative that Roseman is the worst human being ever and nobody wants to work with him.

It's not one or the other. It's entirely possible (even likely) that Howie, for right or wrong, has earned himself a reputation around the league. There are lots of people I have no desire to work with again, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people, or even terrible at their job. And we all know that there's a certain percentage of the NFL front office personnel that will just never respect him, due to him not being a "football guy." It's a fact that he came up through the ranks on the financial/operational side of things

Marynowitz is the most concerning for me. Was seen as a rising FO exec both in and outside of the org. Rose enough in ththe org even before Chip that he was part of the coach search committee in 2013. Now he's gone basically because chip liked him.

The Nightman Cometh wrote:

Grotewold wrote:

The Nightman Cometh wrote:the fact that 5 people who worked with or under Howie on personnel have been fired since he was GM or a higher title.

Who are these five?

Banner, Reid, Gamble, Chip, Marynowitz (was in the organization before Chip)

Banner was replaced by Smolenski in 2012, and became an advisor to Jeffrey Lurie. Later that year he pursued ownership of the Browns. That could have been a shadowy Howie kill shot, I guess, but I've seen zero evidence. (For what it's worth, that's also the year Lurie says Howie controlled the draft.)

Reid -- seriously?

Gamble lost a power struggle with Howie, yes. What remains to be known is who was at fault. Maybe Howie's just a pencil pushing weasel, or maybe Football Men perceive him that way and resent Lurie's affection for him.

Chip got himself fired with a terrible offseason after demanding full control, which cost Marynowitz his job unfortunately.

Louis Riddick
Marc Ross
Jason Licht

Brantt wrote:Louis Riddick
Marc Ross
Jason Licht

Gamble replaced Riddick in 2013. I guess that cancels out, Howie the Weasel wise?

Howie replaced Licht in 2008, yeah. Tough break, Licht.

March Ross has been with the Giants for nine years, with the last three as VP of personnel (how's that been going?)

Why does Howie keep bringing in all of these football people if he's so scared of them?

Grotewold wrote:

Brantt wrote:Louis Riddick
Marc Ross
Jason Licht

Gamble replaced Riddick in 2013. I guess that cancels out, Howie the Weasel wise?

Howie replaced Licht in 2008, yeah. Tough break, Licht.

March Ross has been with the Giants for nine years, with the last three as VP of personnel (how's that been going?)

How much better is his resume?

What?

Banner was out for Howie.

I disagree with your assessment, but admire your continued willingness to sink with the ship. Very phillies 2013.

The Nightman Cometh wrote:Banner was out for Howie.

Even if that's true, that Howie usurpred Banner's personnel say, do you have a problem with that after the previous three or four years? The draft went very well, then Roseman landed the white whale head coaching candidate.

I won't bother pissing into the wind on what happened after that.

Maybe Howie really just wants to be the Red Sox bullpen catcher

Woody wrote:Maybe Howie really just wants to be the Red Sox bullpen catcher

That would be an apt analogy if we only knew Amaro to have had personnel say for one year in which we had a good draft

I'll ask once again -- you think Howie reached for Barkley and Huff? The fireman?

Nnamdi may have been him, but I don't remember anyone complaining that day.

Howie may not be what's killing the franchise, but he does have a knack for being spotted at the scene of the crime