I turn my head and then Eickhoff? Phillies random thoughts

by **Titlehungry** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:55:32

Figure out which ace we want to purchase to join the Nola-Thompson-Eickhoff-Puk/Hansen rotation in a year or two

by **PSUPhilliesPhan** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 21:24:37

pacino wrote:
Squire wrote:Solid move. I like McWilliams but he's at the bottom end of our 30. Hellickson still pretty young. Will eat innings and be credible.

yep, two things we were sorely missing last year. this will help the bullpen and the team overall just by him being competent. if he puts it all together again, then it's a great deal.

Sorry guys but I don't know where this innings eater thing is coming from. Last year Hellickson averaged 5.4 innings per game started. The crappy Phillies starters were 2nd worst in MLB and averaged 5.5 (Rockies worst at 5.3 and that was because of pitch count restrictions). Hellickson averaged 5.5 in 2013 and 4.9 in 2014. Last year he had a 0 bWAR and his xFIP was actually higher in the 2nd half.

I think people are selectively remembering his start against the Phillies when he went 8 innings (and that he was once a top prospect who won ROY). Take away the Phillies game and he only pitched 7 innings TWICE all season, TWICE.

I liked McWilliams and would rather scratch a lottery ticket on him then watch Hellickson for a season. I'm also still ticked he hit Franco. Let's see if he can beat Lannan's -.2 WAR in 2013. At least Lannan didn't cost us anything.

by gr » Sun Nov 15, 2015 21:29:18

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
pacino wrote:
Squire wrote:Solid move. I like McWilliams but he's at the bottom end of our 30. Hellickson still pretty young. Will eat innings and be credible.

yep, two things we were sorely missing last year. this will help the bullpen and the team overall just by him being competent. if he puts it all together again, then it's a great deal.

Sorry guys but I don't know where this innings eater thing is coming from. Last year Hellickson averaged 5.4 innings per game started. The crappy Phillies starters were 2nd worst in MLB and averaged 5.5 (Rockies worst at 5.3 and that was because of pitch count restrictions). Hellickson averaged 5.5 in 2013 and 4.9 in 2014. Last year he had a 0 bWAR and his xFIP was actually higher in the 2nd half.

I think people are selectively remembering his start against the Phillies when he went 8 innings (and that he was once a top prospect who won ROY). Take away the Phillies game and he only pitched 7 innings TWICE all season, TWICE.

I liked McWilliams and would rather scratch a lottery ticket on him then watch Hellickson for a season. I'm also still ticked he hit Franco. Let's see if he can beat Lannan's -.2 WAR in 2013. At least Lannan didn't cost us anything.

Chase Utley disagrees

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:02:04

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
pacino wrote:
Squire wrote:Solid move. I like McWilliams but he's at the bottom end of our 30. Hellickson still pretty young. Will eat innings and be credible.

yep, two things we were sorely missing last year. this will help the bullpen and the team overall just by him being competent. if he puts it all together again, then it's a great deal.

Sorry guys but I don't know where this innings eater thing is coming from. Last year Hellickson averaged 5.4 innings per game started. The crappy Phillies starters were 2nd worst in MLB and averaged 5.5 (Rockies worst at 5.3 and that was because of pitch count restrictions). Hellickson averaged 5.5 in 2013 and 4.9 in 2014. Last year he had a 0 bWAR and his xFIP was actually higher in the 2nd half.

I think people are selectively remembering his start against the Phillies when he went 8 innings (and that he was once a top prospect who won ROY). Take away the Phillies game and he only pitched 7 innings TWICE all season, TWICE.

I liked McWilliams and would rather scratch a lottery ticket on him then watch Hellickson for a season. I'm also still ticked he hit Franco. Let's see if he can beat Lannan's -.2 WAR in 2013. At least Lannan didn't cost us anything.

I can only imagine the narrative if Amaro had traded a prospect for a 6 million dollar veteran innings eater who wasn't really an innings eater and sucks and who, by the way, is a fly ball pitcher. For one thing, was there no FA available without compensation who could give the Phillies ~150 IP and an ERA+ in the mid-80's without giving up any prospect?

by **ReadingPhilly** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:03:18

Feel like there was a real chance Arizona would've non-tendered him anyway.

by **mcare89** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:07:27

Yeah, I kinda don't like it. I don't see the upside at all. He's on a contract year, and even if he puts up great numbers in the first half, I don't think you're going to do much better in a trade haul than a lottery arm like McWilliams.

by **ReadingPhilly** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:12:12

i'd call up san diego and offer to take either gyorko's contract or upton's if they attach either ross or cashner.

by **smitty** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:24:10

JFLNYC wrote:
PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
pacino wrote:
Squire wrote:Solid move. I like McWilliams but he's at the bottom end of our 30. Hellickson still pretty young. Will eat innings and be credible.

yep, two things we were sorely missing last year. this will help the bullpen and the team overall just by him being competent. if he puts it all together again, then it's a great deal.

Sorry guys but I don't know where this innings eater thing is coming from. Last year Hellickson averaged 5.4 innings per game started. The crappy Phillies starters were 2nd worst in MLB and averaged 5.5 (Rockies worst at 5.3 and that was because of pitch count restrictions). Hellickson averaged 5.5 in 2013 and 4.9 in 2014. Last year he had a 0 bWAR and his xFIP was actually higher in the 2nd half.

I think people are selectively remembering his start against the Phillies when he went 8 innings (and that he was once a top prospect who won ROY). Take away the Phillies game and he only pitched 7 innings TWICE all season, TWICE.

I liked McWilliams and would rather scratch a lottery ticket on him then watch Hellickson for a season. I'm also still ticked he hit Franco. Let's see if he can beat Lannan's -.2 WAR in 2013. At least Lannan didn't cost us anything.

I can only imagine the narrative if Amaro had traded a prospect for a 6 million dollar veteran innings eater who wasn't really an innings eater and sucks and who, by the way, is a fly ball pitcher? For one thing, was there no FA available without compensation who could give the Phillies ~150 IP and an ERA+ in the mid-80's without giving up any prospect?

Money isn't a big problem for the team next season. The prospect might be on the tail end of the top 30 or not even that high. But, I think the term "innings eater" means a pitcher who is kinda lousy. He might just be a younger version of Harang.

It's possible he can regain the magic he had when he was younger. If he has a good first half, I'd trade him though. I don't think he will be good long term and he'll get expensive. I still like the trade though. He's supposed to be a good clubhouse guy. And you need those.

http://thatballsouttahere.com/2015/11/1 ... ellickson/

by **Werthless** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:37:59

Guys, we just traded away a RHP who, in his second season of rookie, still can't strike out people. The odds of him contributing in the majors is slim. We basically got Hellickson for free.

by **PTOITWCFTPP** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:39:37

Werthless wrote:Guys, we just traded away a RHP who, in his second season of rookie, still can't strike out people. The odds of him contributing in the majors is slim. We basically got Hellickson for free.

Yep. Good deal.

by **The Savior** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:42:55

PTOITWCFTPP wrote:
Werthless wrote:Guys, we just traded away a RHP who, in his second season of rookie, still can't strike out people. The odds of him contributing in the majors is slim. We basically got Hellickson for free.

Yep. Good deal.

by **lethal** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 22:54:05

Doll Is Mine wrote:
Franco was a bargain $100,000 international signing. Nola and Crawford were top draft picks. Giles was an under-the-radar seventh-round draft pick with a big arm and a bad delivery. Credit the Phillies’ player-development folks for polishing it up. Herrera was a Rule 5 pick. Williams and Thompson came in a trade.

I'll tell ya, Amaro's reign wasn't as bad as we made it out to be. I think his biggest mistake was not changing course early enough and it ultimately cost him his job.

That's like saying Ed Wade wasn't a bad GM because guys like Rollins, Utley and Howard were drafted and developed under his watch and he didn't trade them.

Both Wade and Amaro were absolutely terrible at major portions of their jobs that being passable at a different part couldn't make up for.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 23:22:46

Werthless wrote:Guys, we just traded away a RHP who, in his second season of rookie, still can't strike out people. The odds of him contributing in the majors is slim. We basically got Hellickson for free.

Which, interestingly enough, may be more than he's worth.

by **PSUPhilliesPhan** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 23:25:04

JFLNYC wrote:
Werthless wrote:Guys, we just traded away a RHP who, in his second season of rookie, still can't strike out people. The odds of him contributing in the majors is slim. We basically got Hellickson for free.

Which, interestingly enough, may be more than he's worth.

Exactly!

by **Doll Is Mine** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 00:12:45

It's easy to say that Klentak could've simply signed a starting pitcher in free agency. I just don't see too many pitchers in their prime coming to Philly on a one-year deal worth less than $5 million. I keep seeing guys like Fister and Kennedy mentioned. It's not happening.

You're then left with the Harang's of the world.

This was a good move by Klentak. He gets a 28-year old starting pitcher in his walk year, whom he can trade at the deadline next season for hopefully more prospects. Hellickson will come here motivated to impress his new team.

by **bleh** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 01:49:26

If he has a good year, then you offer a qualifying offer and if he turns it down and signs elsewhere you get a compensation pick.

That's kinda what happened with Ervin Santana, where he was mediocre, then has 1 good year with KC and turns down arbitration and they got the #28 pick for him. Then he turned it down again with the Braves the next year and they got a #28 pick. Also Cleveland got a #31 pick for Ubaldo Jimenez after he had one good year.

by **BigEd76** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 01:57:00

Unless he suddenly has a revelation like Arrieta, I don't see how the Phils would make him a QO of $16M+ to get compensation

by **bleh** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 03:24:57

these are all the SPs who turned down offers this offseason:

LHP Wei-Yin Chen, Orioles
RHP Yovani Gallardo, Rangers
RHP Zack Greinke, Dodgers
RHP Hisashi Iwakuma, Mariners
RHP Ian Kennedy, Padres
RHP John Lackey, Cardinals
RHP Jeff Samardzija, White Sox
RHP Jordan Zimmermann, Nationals

they are all better than Hellickson but they're not aces either for the most part. Hellickson's career ERA is 3.94. Samardzija's is 4.09. Ian Kennedy's is 3.98.

by **Phan In Phlorida** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 05:10:31

The Phils have so many lottery tickets that Gus the groundhog will be the roving minor league mascot.

by **Eem** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:18:15

BigEd76 wrote:Unless he suddenly has a revelation like Arrieta, I don't see how the Phils would make him a QO of $16M+ to get compensation

Right... no one would sign him either even if he magically turns it down

The hope is he has a nice season, can be dealt at the deadline or, more simply, fills a key need in the rotation for the whole year

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