phatj wrote:I think the problem with allowing very young athletes is that it can encourage nations such as China to run what amount to sweatshops for gymnasts. Those girls start training as young as three years old, and not just for fun either.

When do the American gymnasts start? Do they all do it for fun? I'm not certain but I'm not sure there is that much difference.

They already do. Would it change if the limit were 16 or 18 or 20? These kids are taken from their homes and placed in academies at a very young age and really they can't leave because the government pays off their parents and if they leave the parents lose all of that financial support. Most of the families are very poor to begin with.

Here's a story of a gold medal Chinese kayaker who wanted to retire after winning the gold in Athens, but was not allowed to.

The man's 24 now and there's no age limit in his sport. He was in a sports sweatshop along with 250,000 other kids. What can you really do?

Plus smitty's point as well. It isn't like the American kids started when they were older either and I'm sure it wasn't very fun for them all the time, especially under the Karolyi's who have been accused of abusing their students.

I think the difference is that in relatively free countries parents can theoretically pull their kids out of gymnastics programs if the kids decide they don't want to do it any more or if the parents believe that the kids aren't being treated well.

Is the US-Greece bball game only online?

Boy, that USA Baseball team sucks. I doubt they'll place

Terry Tiffee? John Gall?

While Marson and Donald ride the pine?

Mike Koplove and Kevin Jepsen? I mean, I can't blame good players for not wanting to go to red China, but sheesh.

Houshphandzadeh wrote:Is the US-Greece bball game only online?

USA 8 AM tomorrow

That sucks. 1 hour late is no problem. 2 doesn't fly.

Who is John Gall?

phatj wrote:I think the problem with allowing very young athletes is that it can encourage nations such as China to run what amount to sweatshops for gymnasts. Those girls start training as young as three years old, and not just for fun either.

They already do that...

The only issue to me, is that are younger smaller lighter athletes more likely to be able to balance or stick a landing? Is there something in the physics of the tasks that gives and advantage to someone smaller and lighter?

I thought the older athletes would be stronger and more polished. But otherwise, I don't care about age, OR, they could have age ranges 13-15, 16-18, 19-21 -- and you compete by age range?

Also, why so much obession with 'the Gold', getting any medal should be a big deal. AND -- these people compete all the time, the Olympics is just once in 4 years. Everyone knows who the best are, and except for obvious things like slips of balance, falls or bad landings, most lay people can't tell the difference or small things they get credit for or deductions for. I can't understand the scoring at all and it often seems arbitrary to me. In a race, you are either first or not. Nothing subjective, degrees of difficulty etc... I saw some bad-ass shit from all the Americans female gymnasts, but they couldn't put a totally flawless mistake-free routine together. I don't know what's harder or easier?

phatj wrote:I think the difference is that in relatively free countries parents can theoretically pull their kids out of gymnastics programs if the kids decide they don't want to do it any more or if the parents believe that the kids aren't being treated well.

Theoretically you are correct. But in reality, those kids can be treated pretty badly (being called fatties and stuff is part of it if I recall correctly).

I'd bet in an least a few cases, the parents are worse than the coaches.

You are right that this isn't China and the government doesn't control things as much. But between the parents and the coaches and the striving for some tiny girl to be a GOLD MEDALIST in the OLYMPICS, you've got to think there's some kind of sweatshop type stuff going on.

And the ones that just miss making the team -- those poor kids may be scarred for life.

Each stituation is different, I;'m sure and some of these kids thrive in this type of environment. But I'd bet there aremore than one or two kids in the USA who are pretty miserable little gymnasts.

phatj wrote:Who is John Gall?

Apparently some 30-year-old slug AAAA player in Florida's farm system. Why he's leading off (and going 0-5) for Team USA is the bigger question.

Our old friend

struck out the side in the 9th as Canada beat China 10-0 in a prelim game

Reee-AL CorMYAY?

We should have just convinced him to drop out of the Olympics instead of getting AIR

seke2 wrote:gymnasts are supposed to be at least 16 during the calendar year. so the youngest a gymnast can be is 15.

some of those chinese girls looked about 10, but supposedly all of their ages were validated by the IOC.

How? Did they cut them open and count the rings?

Philly the Kid wrote:Also, why so much obession with 'the Gold', getting any medal should be a big deal.

For the same reason that the Yankees or Red Sox aren't really happy if they make the playoffs and don't win it at all. Or why a lot of people weren't super-duper excited about the Eagles losing the Superbowl a few years ago. It's just expectations.

Some teams/athletes are just better than others, and thus there is an expectation that they will perform at a certain level, same as others. In partiuclar, our women's gymnastics team is just way better than most other countries with the exception of China. Other teams aren't doing things at the same degree of difficulty, so they can't really compete. For the US women to have gotten anything WORSE than a silver medal, they would have had to totally screw the pooch repeatedly. So that's why they were "obsessed" with the gold and disappointed when they got silver. They basically were getting either gold or silver, so silver was the "worst" thing they could (somewhat realistically) do. Getting "any sort of medal" isn't a big deal when there's basically a 0% chance you don't get a medal.

On the other hand, the men's team was no sure thing for any sort of medal and they were very excited about the bronze they got.

Anyway, it's no different than any other sport. If the Royals made the playoffs and got swept in the first round, a lot of their fans would be super-excited because they far exceeded expectations. If the Red Sox did the same thing, they'd be calling for the manager's head because they fell short of expectations.

Bob Loblaw wrote:

seke2 wrote:gymnasts are supposed to be at least 16 during the calendar year. so the youngest a gymnast can be is 15.

some of those chinese girls looked about 10, but supposedly all of their ages were validated by the IOC.

How? Did they cut them open and count the rings?

well, that couldn't be any less accurate than whatever method they did use that allowed that one girl who was about 3 feet tall and looked like she was due back in kindergarden after finishing her routines.

Philly the Kid wrote:

phatj wrote:I think the problem with allowing very young athletes is that it can encourage nations such as China to run what amount to sweatshops for gymnasts. Those girls start training as young as three years old, and not just for fun either.

They already do that...

The only issue to me, is that are younger smaller lighter athletes more likely to be able to balance or stick a landing? Is there something in the physics of the tasks that gives and advantage to someone smaller and lighter?

I think that more compact athletes are generally able to produce more power relative to their weight, meaning they might not be faster/stronger etc. in an absolute sense, but they can perform certain acrobatic feats such as flips and twists better. Also, being shorter should help with balance due to a lower center of mass. So younger gymnasts have a natural advantage in that they tend to be smaller.

Also, I've heard that they tend to burn out physically in their teens due to the incredibly tough training from such a young age. Kids don't develop properly if they exercise too hard. So if China was required to play by the rules as far as age, they might not be able to field as competitive a team, and then they might stop running the sweatshops as they would no longer give them any advantage.

seke2 wrote:

Bob Loblaw wrote:

seke2 wrote:gymnasts are supposed to be at least 16 during the calendar year. so the youngest a gymnast can be is 15.

some of those chinese girls looked about 10, but supposedly all of their ages were validated by the IOC.

How? Did they cut them open and count the rings?

well, that couldn't be any less accurate than whatever method they did use that allowed that one girl who was about 3 feet tall and looked like she was due back in kindergarden after finishing her routines.

She also lipsynched the Chinese national anthem.

td11 wrote:Is there an age restriction for gymnastics? Because there is no way some of those girls on the Chinese team are 16. They look 12, tops.

After the gymnastics last night, Bob Costas was talking to some old guy who basically accused China of cheating, saying it was obvious the girls were under 16 and they shouldn't be allowed to compete.