kimbatiste wrote:Kid,

I've been thinking of giving jazz another shot. I listened to it a little when I was younger but think I would appreciate it a lot more now.

Can you recommend a guy or two that I should check out that would be good for someone in my position (i.e., not one of the famous people that I've already heard)?

WHat would help me, is to know a bit more about your musical tastes and your ear. Are there certain instruments that turn you off, do you like or not like frenetic music? Tell me a bit and I'll give you some interesting things to suss out. You might not like classic 50's or 60's jazz but might like some more recent stuff? Do you like a nice melody and good harmony or some chaotic drumming and guitar stuff??

I think I would enjoy the harmony and melody more than chaotic drums. Some bands to give you an idea would be Sigur Ros, Rilo Kiley, Postal Service, Pavement, Flaming Lips.

I've just started to get into Jazz. I always like the genre, but in college I lacked the knowledge and money to really get into it more. I only have 3 Jazz albums, which I think have given me a pretty good introduction to jazz.

Stan Kenton - Kenton '76
Miles Davis - Greatest Hits
John Coltrane - Giant Steps

Kenton is definitely my favorite thus far. "Time For A Change" is amazing. I was wondering if any of you guys could recommend something to further this rather paltry collection for a novice jazz listener? Something a little slower in tempo like "Time For A Change" and a bit bluesy would be great.

Thanks.

SK790 wrote:I've just started to get into Jazz. I always like the genre, but in college I lacked the knowledge and money to really get into it more. I only have 3 Jazz albums, which I think have given me a pretty good introduction to jazz.

Stan Kenton - Kenton '76
Miles Davis - Greatest Hits
John Coltrane - Giant Steps

Kenton is definitely my favorite thus far. "Time For A Change" is amazing. I was wondering if any of you guys could recommend something to further this rather paltry collection for a novice jazz listener? Something a little slower in tempo like "Time For A Change" and a bit bluesy would be great.

Thanks.

wow - your Kenton appreciation marks you as a rara avis among newbie jazz fans. You've got yourself an interesting starting point for finding other musicians and recordings you might like. One path is to simply take a look at the rosters of players in his ensembles and follow them out. Here in no particular order is just a cursory list of the diverse players, arrangers, & bandleaders that intersected with Kenton:

Alto sax touchstone Art Pepper
tenor nonpareil Stan Getz
Trumpet innovator & bandleader Maynard Ferguson
trombonists Kai Winding & Frank Rosolino
singers Anita O'Day, June Christy & Chris Connor
arrangers Pete Rugolo, Marty Paich, Bill Holman (who contributed a tune to Time for A Change), Mel Lewis
west coast innovators Shorty Rogers, Bud Shank,
Bari sax/arranger/west coast jazz 'father' (with significant Philadelphia connection) Gerry Mulligan
reed men Lee Konitz & Pepper Adams (Kenton did pretty well with white sax players)

A lot but not all of these individuals are deceased; a lot but not all are associated with what's referred to as west coast jazz, which is a not particularly reliable modifier in terms of sound & style, but applied often nonetheless.

I may be totally wrong on this, but there are also plenty of contemporary performers you might enjoy that no one would necessarily associate with Kenton or west coasters. A few that come to mind are pianist Vijay Iyer, singer Gretchen Parlato, reed players David Binney & Anat Cohen, guitarist Charlie Hunter (esp his eponymously named early CD). Players from the recording you've mentioned were not really among Kenton's bright lights, so following their associations might not be the quickest path to new stuff you like.

That you also have taken to Coltrane's Giant Steps is almost like a cherry on the sundae. More than most, you're probably safe trusting your ears!

SK790 wrote:I've just started to get into Jazz. I always like the genre, but in college I lacked the knowledge and money to really get into it more. I only have 3 Jazz albums, which I think have given me a pretty good introduction to jazz.

Stan Kenton - Kenton '76
Miles Davis - Greatest Hits
John Coltrane - Giant Steps

Kenton is definitely my favorite thus far. "Time For A Change" is amazing. I was wondering if any of you guys could recommend something to further this rather paltry collection for a novice jazz listener? Something a little slower in tempo like "Time For A Change" and a bit bluesy would be great.

Thanks.

Why is Kenton your favorite so far? Is it because you like the big band sound? Or because the material is more palatbale, less edgy frenetic?

I'm going to give you and Kim some rec's soon

Philly the Kid wrote:Why is Kenton your favorite so far? Is it because you like the big band sound? Or because the material is more palatbale, less edgy frenetic?

Kid, I think you're onto it, tho among the west coast forebears, Kenton was prone to more unusual stuff than many.

But look again at the 3 discs SK lists - I mean, that is a listening list of a person with ears

drsmooth wrote: Players from the recording you've mentioned were not really among Kenton's bright lights, so following their associations might not be the quickest path to new stuff you like.

hold the presses SK - I'm pretty sure trumpeter Tim Hagans was on the Kention disc you mentioned. Here's a brief interview with him, which suggests he may also currently have a Philly-area connection. He's not Davis, or Lee Morgan, even Christian Scott, but he must be pretty good.

I did not know he plays regularly with Maria Schneider, whose big band recordings you may want to check out. I've taken in a couple of her bands' performances, and, well, if you do like jazz, there's plenty to like in Schneider's outfits (another regular in her ensembles that may be of interest is pianist Frank Kimbrough).

I like Benny Green.

Like I said, I'm pretty green to jazz, so it's not like I know what I'm talking about. If I had to say, it would be that it's a combination of the big band sound and that it's less "edgy frenetic", as you put it. I like the slower tempo of the music as opposed to Coltrane's Giant Steps, not that I didn't enjoy Giant Steps. I also like that there are a lot of instruments contributing to the songs.

I honestly haven't listened to the albums enough to recall specific details as to why I enjoyed them. I'll give them a listen again right now and try to give some more sound reasoning.

drs, you mentioned that Kenton had some better musicians around him in other recordings. Any specific records I should check out? I will look into some of the musicians you mentioned. Also, I'm not sure if I can really take credit for having a good ear, the artists were recommended to me, and I did kind of pick the albums blindly.

SK790 wrote:Like I said, I'm pretty green to jazz, so it's not like I know what I'm talking about. If I had to say, it would be that it's a combination of the big band sound and that it's less "edgy frenetic", as you put it. I like the slower tempo of the music as opposed to Coltrane's Giant Steps, not that I didn't enjoy Giant Steps. I also like that there are a lot of instruments contributing to the songs.

I honestly haven't listened to the albums enough to recall specific details as to why I enjoyed them. I'll give them a listen again right now and try to give some more sound reasoning.

drs, you mentioned that Kenton had some better musicians around him in other recordings. Any specific records I should check out? I will look into some of the musicians you mentioned. Also, I'm not sure if I can really take credit for having a good ear, the artists were recommended to me, and I did kind of pick the albums blindly.

I;m getting the picture -- Giant Steps isn't really a starting place for some new and not necessarily already geared to like Jazz. It's a seminal album and the tune "Giant Steps" was a revolutionary moment for Jazz ... as well, the intense melodic lines of Coltrane that emerge there -- not really the first place to enter in Jazz. YOu may come to appreciate it more later.

I'll get you a nice starter list shortly.... a range of things older and newer that will go down comfortably - let you make your way in to an art-form that has almost a century of history and a LOT of sub-genres.

TenuredVulture wrote:I like Benny Green.

good call

SK790 wrote:I'm not sure if I can really take credit for having a good ear, the artists were recommended to me, and I did kind of pick the albums blindly.

if by blindly you mean "with my eyes closed & ears open", well, alright then!

Thanks for the help, guys. I listened to all of them again at work. Hard to get a read on Miles Davis' style since it was a compilation rather than an album. "So What" was probably my favorite track. The Coltrane album was nice, but as you said PTK, it's hard to get into just being a newer listener. Hard to differentiate what's going on with the different instruments. I'd say my favorite parts were the piano solos in them. I loved "Naima", though.

Kenton was a joy to listen to, as always. Time for A Change, Send In The Clowns, A Smith Named Greg were all awesome. The other tracks were very good as well.

I definitely prefer the orchestra. Also, I'm partial to the saxophone over the horn.

SK790 wrote:Thanks for the help, guys. I listened to all of them again at work. Hard to get a read on Miles Davis' style since it was a compilation rather than an album. "So What" was probably my favorite track. The Coltrane album was nice, but as you said PTK, it's hard to get into just being a newer listener. Hard to differentiate what's going on with the different instruments. I'd say my favorite parts were the piano solos in them. I loved "Naima", though.

Kenton was a joy to listen to, as always. Time for A Change, Send In The Clowns, A Smith Named Greg were all awesome. The other tracks were very good as well.

I definitely prefer the orchestra. Also, I'm partial to the saxophone over the horn.

If you like the piano on Coltrane recordings, you might be interested in picking up some McCoy Tyner, as he played on a lot of those tracks.

Hey, I demanded jazz satisfaction!

/not that serious IRL, it's just a joke

Listening to Kenton on my iTunes shuffle jostled my memory about this...

SK790 wrote:Hey, I demanded jazz satisfaction!

/not that serious IRL, it's just a joke

Listening to Kenton on my iTunes shuffle jostled my memory about this...

That Kid, always the slacker

SK, I have no idea what Kenton recordings are not to be missed, but do have a sense that few of his recordings from the 40s & early 50s - the period the players I'm most familiar with were with him - are available in other than "best of"- type compilations.

I'd refer you again to recordings of Tim Hagans, and Maria Schneider's big band. Again, I don't know much about Hagans, other than a) he's still pretty active b) I've learned he is widely respected. Check AMZN for MP3 samples for either to whet your whistle. BY ALL MEANS, check them out live if you get any chance to do so. There are some GREAT players out & about these days, and it is THE way to really enjoy jazz, whoever may be playing.

Schneider's self-published Concert in the Garden was, I believe, the 1st self-published Grammy winner. Samples are available here. Danca Ilusoria & the rhumba number are pretty accessible examples.

Clips from other recordings here.

She is NOT a Kenton clone, at all, but is among the few leading a big band that is doing new things with diverse orchestration. She also has a quirky sex appeal that she is aware of, in an "high school honor society chick discovers her latent hotness in senior year" kind of way.

drsmooth wrote:

SK790 wrote:Hey, I demanded jazz satisfaction!

/not that serious IRL, it's just a joke

Listening to Kenton on my iTunes shuffle jostled my memory about this...

That Kid, always the slacker

SK, I have no idea what Kenton recordings are not to be missed, but do have a sense that few of his recordings from the 40s & early 50s - the period the players I'm most familiar with were with him - are available in other than "best of"- type compilations.

I'd refer you again to recordings of Tim Hagans, and Maria Schneider's big band. Again, I don't know much about Hagans, other than a) he's still pretty active b) I've learned he is widely respected. Check AMZN for MP3 samples for either to whet your whistle. BY ALL MEANS, check them out live if you get any chance to do so. There are some GREAT players out & about these days, and it is THE way to really enjoy jazz, whoever may be playing.

Schneider's self-published Concert in the Garden was, I believe, the 1st self-published Grammy winner. Samples are available here. Danca Ilusoria & the rhumba number are pretty accessible examples.

Clips from other recordings here.

She is NOT a Kenton clone, at all, but is among the few leading a big band that is doing new things with diverse orchestration. She also has a quirky sex appeal that she is aware of, in an "high school honor society chick discovers her latent hotness in senior year" kind of way.

Tim Hagans was from Cincinatti, a friend of mine in grad school was his student back in Cincy -- and so he turned me on to TIm via some personal recordings. At the time, he was modeled on Woody Shaw. Over the years he has developed a larger reputation and made some recordings, I think I have one somewhere...

Woody Shaw was a favorite of mine on Trumpet but I think the request was for less brass more reeds and melodic stuff -- he liked the slower more modal open sounds of Miles Davis than the hard bop...

Woody Shaw on the albub "Rosewood" does play with a tight group and there are some blazing solos, but the compositions are nice... also Woody III has some stuff that is not big band but more analagous to some of Mingus larger ensemble stuff.

So those are two possible things to look in to

Woody Shaw
"Woody III"
"Rosewood"

both on Columbia from the late 70's


If this kind of nice compositions quintet/sextet goes down nicely -- then I'd say look for:

Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers
recording titled:
"Album of the Year"
1980-ish with a young Wyton Marsalis and Bobby Watson, Bass player Charles Famgrough from Philly


I think SK might like a record like

"The Village Vanguard Sessions" piano trio Bill Evans and Scott lafaro early 60's.

I think a nice palatable but quality record like

"Seeds of Time" -- Dave Holland quintet would be a nice entry point not too complex or cacophonous or old fahsioned...

If someone was looking for a series of seminal recordings from the late 50's and early-mid 60's to just get indoctrinated on Jazz --

John Coltrane
"Blue Train"
John Coltrane
"Giant Steps"
John Coltrane
"The Village Vanguard Sessions"
John Coltrane
"A Love Supreme

Mile Davis
"Friday and Saturday Night at the Blackhawk"
Miles Davis
"Kind of Blue"
Miles Davis
"ESP"
Miles Davis
"Miles Smiles"
Miles Davis
"Nefertiti"

Wayne Shorter
"Ju Ju"
Wayne Shorter
"Speak No Evil"
"Wayne Shorter
"Adam's Apple"

Art Blakey Jazz Messengers
"Indestructible"

Larry Young
"Unity"

McCoy Tyner
"The Real McCoy"

Joe Henderson
"In n Out"

Andrew Hill
"Point of View"

Oliver Nelson
"Blues and the Abstract Truth"

Freddie Hubbard
"Free for All"

I think a nice album that you non-Jazz guys could get in to is:

Freddie Hubbard
"Red Clay" on CTI from the early 70's

If you want any solo piano or piano trios -- that's an entire genre
As well, vocalists --- its own genre

If you want things with a bit of electric guitar
John Scofield with Richie Beireich on piano I'll find the title...

If you want some side stuff
Ronald Shannon Jackson

or even Phila's own Odean Pope on the MOERS label out of Germany from the 80's

I'm thinking if you like the big band stuff of Kenton maybe the Miles stuff like Sketches of Spain"

Also the Vienna Art Orchestra -- surprisingly good

I'll add more when I can -- I'm super busy right now....


Red Clay
Village Vanguard Sessions
Seeds of Time
Woody III

start with those 4

also

Blues and the Abstract Truth


That's a first 5

one more -- late 80's

Geri Allen
"Open on all Sides in the Middle"

not a traditional Jazz record but very interesting -- might go down easier than straight-ahead...

Vernon Reid played with Ronald Shannon Jackon's Decoding Society. I've got a couple of those albums on vinyl, but I haven't listened to them in a long, long time.

Philly the Kid wrote:Blues and the Abstract Truth

SK, just to let you know - the Kid came thru for you!!

Oliver Nelson may be just the man (and the orchestra) for you. B&TAT is a classic - you'll recognize the opening # the instant the - well what's the MP3/CD player equivalent of the stylus anyway - the instant that thing hits the opening of the recording.

Awesome call, Kid

& TV, your Benny Green shout-out was not missed - his duo recordings with Russell Malone are choice. There's a live recording of them at the Bistro in St Louis that's really nice. They are fine stuff live as you might guess (Green, a taller than average guy, has an occasionally habit of slllloooooowwwwwwly reclining, left, right, or back as he performs, kind of bizarre, but catches your attention)

I would add that Red Clay and Mingus Mingus Mingus for example

have key samples you've heard used by groups like Tribe Called Quest - a lot of people in their 20's and early 30's got in to jazz via sampling in Hip Hop...

I can be more detailed and precise in a future note ... more options with better descriptions...

Also, a lot of stuff can be found on YouTube or MP3 sampled excerpts on sites that sell the music -- give you a quick taste etc... so you can browse -- see what appeals?

If you are in to down tempo Jazzy Electronica you might dig Jazzanova "In between" or Nuspirit Helskinki (their first title)


Tenured mentioned my favorite musician of all McCoy Tyner who is now in his early 70's, but was in his early 20's when he played with Coltrane. McCoy is a very unique and amazing pianist. Has no other people you would ever confuse as being him. However, he is very advanced. And while it can be gentle and beautiful its also very violent and cacophonous -- so for instance. the very tune "Giant Steps" which Coltrane debuted in 1960-61 that no musicians were ready for then -- became kind of a measuring stick in Jazz. "Can you play Giant Steps" I remember Bobby Watson hanging out after a weird gig at La Salle College in the early 80's saying "thanks man, thanks for the props - but George Coleman - George Coleman man, he can play Giant Steps in all 12 keys!" --

So -- there is a YouTube clip from the mid-90's in Hamburg Germany of McCoy Tyner playing Giant Steps at a pretty intense clip/tempo -- it is not the same kind of sound of Giant Steps from the original recording. This might be too advanced for a beginner and seem to agitated, cacophonous or complex. However, check it out if you'd like... it may be something that doesn't resonate today but would in 5 years after growing your ear If you don't understand what he's doing then you are forced to get it more on a visceral level.

I would suggest finding the YouTube of Giant Steps by Coltrane where the printed out in notes the entire Coltrane solo. THEN play the McCoy solo piano clip from the 90's, and then play the Gonzalo Rubalcaba version of Giant Steps -- to get an idea how a "tune" in Jazz is just a platform. A scaffold. The only thing that makes them all Giant Steps, is they follow the form and the rough outline of the chord changes. McCoy and Gonzalo for instance -- expand the chords and the harmonies, play at very fast tempos the Gonzalo has a lot of complex drum work behind him... they have moved the music forwards in terms of approach.

One interesting thing about Jazz, is that there are certain well known tunes/songs/jazz standards that are played over n over by different artists through the ages in a different eras...