The Dude wrote:I'm just not understanding where the problem lies. If you're able to dramatically overcome these labels by recognizing various influences, despite differences in genres, what's wrong with labeling them to help us idiots differentiate them

I don't like categories. I think categories make it more difficult to identify music you might like and diminish the listening experience. Categories are used to control how we listen to music.

But I have no problem telling someone if you think the intro to Baba O'Reilly sounds cool, you might check out Terry Riley. Or Steve Reich.

karn wrote:Listeners have never changed. Those who want to dig deeper do and those who don't, well, don't.

Exactly. Getting worked up over what is jazz or whatever is stupid. You can label the genres as painstakingly meticulous as you want. It won't matter. If someone is a serious listener in the first place, then they were going to dig deeper anyway and find what they want no matter what. If they're not a serious listener then they weren't going to do it anyway and it doesn't matter. Calling it one thing or another is not going to make a huge difference.

I'd like to know what exactly it is you think that people do when discussing or learning about music exactly, TV. Your anecdotes are bizarre because they're pretty stock for the way these things are handled. Yet you use them seemingly as examples for what people don't do and how we're all held hostage by constricting labels.

Is it your contention that more Who fans should like Terry Riley but don't because of stigmatizing labeling that often groups him in with modern classical?

karn wrote:I'd like to know what exactly it is you think that people do when discussing or learning about music exactly, TV. Your anecdotes are bizarre because they're pretty stock for the way these things are handled. Yet you use them seemingly as examples for what people don't do and how we're all held hostage by constricting labels.

Is it your contention that more Who fans should like Terry Riley but don't because of stigmatizing labeling that often groups him in with modern classical?

He lives in Arkansas. Its barely a state.

karn wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Thinks are sorted so they can be marketed and controlled by the music industry. It makes listeners passive, receptive to whatever is shoveled out by the authorities.

Musicologists who have taken lifetimes to sort through the history of recorded music and meticulously organize genres have no ties or binding to the music industry, nor are they interested in developing passivity in other listeners. Quite the contrary. Cataloguing gives people starting points, valuable reference materials from which to begin in earnest and then expand increasingly outwardly.

Unless what YOU mean by categorization is the little plastic cards that stores use to group their CDs. And that the companies tell the stores where to stick the new releases. Is that it?

I think what TV says was true and is still true to a greater extent than many would like to acknowledge. On the other hand, the trend in locating music, as it is in locating information of any type, is toward DIY and through keyword searching. If you are looking for "more like this", you'd better at least have some vocabulary to describe what it is that you're looking for, or you're going to have to continue to take the word of someone else's algorithm,shaped to their values.

While the majority of information retrieval is trending toward free searching there is definitely still a place for controlled vocabulary such as karn describes. As he says, musicologists have worked long and hard to create terms with specific, shared meanings in order to increase understanding. Using these terms, much as someone might use LOC subject headings, can get someone much closer to the desired object much faster, than dancing around it with various associated, colloquial, sensory or vaguely descriptive terms. Does that mean someone has to stop there and not add additional information , or cross reference, or combine terms or create new terms in order to understand or convey information about the music to others? No, of course, not, and it seems kind of arrogant to assume you won't be tied down by labels but to assume everyone else won't be able to get beyond them.

Each one of these genres is further broken down into subgenres. Some people like it this way. I don't.

AOL Radio powered by CBS Radio. Choose from 350+ Free Online Radio Stations. Listen Now
Music Genres

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o Eclectic
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o Hip-Hop / Rap
o Indie
o Jazz
o Kids
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TenuredVulture wrote:Each one of these genres is further broken down into subgenres. Some people like it this way. I don't.

AOL Radio powered by CBS Radio. Choose from 350+ Free Online Radio Stations. Listen Now
Music Genres

o Alternative
o Best Of
o Blues
o Christian
o Classical
o Comedy
o Country
o Dance / Electronic
o Eclectic
o Gospel
o Hip-Hop / Rap
o Indie
o Jazz
o Kids
o Latino
o Lite Sounds
o Metal
o News
o Oldies
o Pop
o R&B
o Rock
o Soundtracks
o Sports
o Talk
o Themes
o World / International

I can see what you mean in terms of radio. My favorite station would just randomly jump from each of these playlists to another.

TenuredVulture wrote:

The Dude wrote:Why couldn't you just say "Check out Messiaen, you'll find the cd in classical, but the music influenced Radiohead"

That's pretty much what I did say, isn't it?

I can't see ANY connection between Olivier Messiaen and Radiohead? Messiaen is the bridge composer between the pre WWII guys (Stravinsky, Bartok, Shostakovich, Copland) and the post-WWii guys (Stockhausen, Berio, Boulez, Ligeti, Carter)

If you want to check him out, I suggest a more accessible piece like Quartet for the end of Time.

Regarding 'definitions' and categories, they are only useful if people share some common ground. To some, Jazz is Dixieland New Orleans music. To some it's "all Black music".

To me, there is a Jazz continuum, just like there is a Western European art-music (Classical) continuum. Classical is a period actually defining the period of Mozart, Haydn, Gluck and most Beethoven. It's also a formal designation. "The classical form", etc...

Jazz to me is a continuum that started in African came over with slaves, grew out of their music in the fields, and was a mostly African American innovation, with tentacles to things like Ragtime, Spirituals, Blues, Dixielnad, etc... when people speak of Jazz today, they usually mean the music invented by Charlie Parker in the early 40's called be-bop and most of what grew out of that, but might also mean anything from Louis Armstrong to Lester Young, Cab Calloway, Count Basie, etc... right up through Ornette Coleman, Art Ensemble of Chicago, or people like Leroy Jenkins.

Classical started also in the monastaries, and with traveling secular music like Troubadours etc...

Both art-forms connected the music to dance forms as well. Both grew from a ritual music to an intellectual music.

The reason boogie woogie, rock, blues (as we know it today), funk, hip-hop etc... r&b came about, was because the source -- Jazz, became too sophisitcated for the every-man/woman and was no longer a dance form, but a more cerebral art-form involving more need to handle complexity and contemplation.

Many younger people I know found their way to certain Jazz or commercial Jazz artists via sampling and Hip Hop/rap etc...

The most experimental improvised music whether growing more out of classical off-shoots or jazz, becomes very similar. The difference between a guy like Malcolm Goldstein (violin improviser from a classical background) and Leroy Jenkins (violin improviser from a jazz) is almost indistinguishable.

Kenny G, is afront to all music goers of taste. To call him "Jazz" offends Jazz. But there are analogs in Classical too, Jon Tesh is afront to all music too.

Most heads, get in to sub-genres and then can have a more meaningful discussion. to say, "i hate all electronica" is pretty broad statement. To say, "I don't dig Chicago House, but I like two-step and glitch" is more meaningful. To say, I don't dig straight-ahead Jazz from the 60's, but I like the jazz influences on Bill Frissel as an improviser -- is a more meaningful discourse.

I think Blue Train gets better every time I listen to it.

FTN wrote:I think Blue Train gets better every time I listen to it.

It is a special record...

You should listen to McCoy Tyner on Super Trios doing Moment's Notice, to see how the music evovled in 20 years...

I've heard him do Lazy Bird at break-neck speed solo probably about 10 years ago, that sent chills down my spine...

For the last few days, I've been listening to almost nothing but Miles Davis. And I think for the LCS, I might stick with music the whole time. Yesterday I listened to most of this

The Complete Live at the Plugged Nickel 1965 is a compact disc box set of the Miles Davis Quintet, recorded in late December 1965, and released on Legacy Records in July of 1995. It comprises recordings made over two nights of performances by Davis' second great quintet at the Plugged Nickel nightclub in Chicago. Some tracks were available on Miles Davis compilations, but the full recordings were not released until the appearance of this box set. The quintet of Davis, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams had already issued the E.S.P. album consisting of original compositions by members of the band; the repertoire at the club included none of those tunes, instead reliant upon standards or items that had been in Davis's live repertoire for several years. The tunes are performed with substantially more rhythmic and harmonic freedom than on earlier recordings.

Each disc of the box set of eight discs presents one complete set, with the exception of the second set on the first night of December 22, which splits the set onto two discs, with the discs internally numbered accordingly. The set has been awarded a rare crown by the Penguin Guide to Jazz.

I think this is my second favorite Miles Davis configuration (not going out on a huge limb), and this set is absolutely amazing on every level. Sound is beautiful too. Really one of the best jazz boxes available.

FTN wrote: Really one of the best jazz boxes available.

Nice choice. Particularly good for people who have trouble grasping how jazz performance differs from pop. There are only around 2 dozen individual tunes across the 8 discs (eight sets). Play discs 1 & 4 back-to-back, or 1& 7, & a listener can hear how the band re-imagines songs like Stella by Starlight, I Fall In Love Too Easily, and The Theme from one night to the next.


The pressure's on Don Cheadle to get his Miles Davis movie in a box by 2011 (20th anniversary of Davis's death - seems impossible).

FTN wrote:For the last few days, I've been listening to almost nothing but Miles Davis. And I think for the LCS, I might stick with music the whole time. Yesterday I listened to most of this

The Complete Live at the Plugged Nickel 1965 is a compact disc box set of the Miles Davis Quintet, recorded in late December 1965, and released on Legacy Records in July of 1995. It comprises recordings made over two nights of performances by Davis' second great quintet at the Plugged Nickel nightclub in Chicago. Some tracks were available on Miles Davis compilations, but the full recordings were not released until the appearance of this box set. The quintet of Davis, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams had already issued the E.S.P. album consisting of original compositions by members of the band; the repertoire at the club included none of those tunes, instead reliant upon standards or items that had been in Davis's live repertoire for several years. The tunes are performed with substantially more rhythmic and harmonic freedom than on earlier recordings.

Each disc of the box set of eight discs presents one complete set, with the exception of the second set on the first night of December 22, which splits the set onto two discs, with the discs internally numbered accordingly. The set has been awarded a rare crown by the Penguin Guide to Jazz.

I think this is my second favorite Miles Davis configuration (not going out on a huge limb), and this set is absolutely amazing on every level. Sound is beautiful too. Really one of the best jazz boxes available.

Not sure I've heard much of these before? ESP and Miles Smiles are seminal works. I'm curious to hear the live sets though...

For the older Miles, Friday and Saturday night at the Blackhawk are solid -- those recorded in SF...

If you happen to be in NYC in November, are not booked for a WFS game, and are interested in jazz of any kind, you are in luckier luck than I can describe to you.

For the princely sum of $5 (yes - 5 american damn dollars) to $35 a ticket, you can basically hear, every night of the month*, someone - usually several someones - who is at or near the top tier of jazz performers playing today. Every effin evening. Some are in their 20s - some are in their 80s. Some it's hard to tell (certainly not by ear).

They are: a lot of people. Partial list:

John Abercrombie
Howard Alden
Gene Bertoncini
David Binney
Buddy DeFranco
Sonny Fortune
Curtis Fuller
Jim Hall
Charlie Hunter
Dave Leibman
Jay Leonhart
Joe Lovano
Medeski/Martin/Wood
Mulgrew Miller
O'Farills Arturo, Chico, & Zack
Greg Osby
Gretchen Parlato
Nicolas Payton
Ken Peplowski
Bucky Pizzarelli
Josh Roseman
Pharoah Sanders
Maria Schneider
Esperanza Spalding
Marcus Strickland
Lew Tabackin
Nasheet Waits
Tain Watts
John Zorn

They're at (to name a few spots):
55Bar
Bella Luna
Birdland
Clemente Soto Velez Cultural Center
Dizzy's
Gershwin Hotel
I-Beam
Iridium
Jazz 966
Jazz Gallery
Jazz Standard
Katona
Knickerbocker Grill
Lenox Lounge
Nublu
Rubin Museum
Smalls
Smoke
Village Vanguard

Now, several of the performers are in NY a lot - Schneider's Jazz Standard Thanksgiving appearance is probably booked into the next century - but many are relatively seldom heard, and what seems notable about this November is several are playing so many different nights in so many different places. It's like David Binney & Tain Watts Month in NY.

If you like jazz, or even merely think you might, & you're in NYC next month, get out & listen - tho with so many players in so many places, you may pick up the signals thru your fillings, without going anywhere.

* yes, even thanksgiving day. in fact, you'd have some tough choices to make, and I'm not talking pumpkin or apple pie.

Right now, Wynton Marsalis has to be my favorite jazz performer. The dude is young and absolutely amazing, one of the best if not the best jazz trumpeter alive.

man the live version of Red Clay on the remastered edition is out of this world. What a brilliant composition.

FTN wrote:man the live version of Red Clay on the remastered edition is out of this world. What a brilliant composition.

not my favorite Freddie, but certainly good stuff

Enjoyable NYC jazz event notice:

NYC Winter Jazzfest

Jan 8-9 2010 $30 for 2-day pass, $25 single day

So the smooths went to the APAP's NYC Winter Jazzfest two weeks ago. It was cold out, but hot within. Hit of the weekend for us was Rudresh Mahanthappa, an alto player with gusto, who came on at Kenny's Castaways around 1am Sat nite (guitarist Rez Abassi & tabla/drums guy Dan Weiss were pretty, pretty, pretty good too). Smoothelle, ordinarily an early-to-bed type, insisted we stay for the set.

Check out Apti, keeping in mind that this studio recording is a considerably tamed version of what he & his Indo-Pak Coalition do with it live; you may understand her enthusiasm.