Putt Putt wrote:Most definitely - I'm a musician & attended Univ of Arts in Philly as a jazz major. In my younger years, I listened to everything & anything but lately more & more find myself leaning towards hard bop - Clifford/Max especially...still enjoy some bigger ensemble stuff (Kenton for the arranging brilliance, Thad Jones/Mel Lewis, Duke, and still have a warm spot in my heart for some of Maynard's 60's & 70's bands.

....dad?

I literally right this minute and I am not kidding you am listening to A Night At Birdland Vol.1 (Clifford Brown/Art Blakey).

54 years old & brand new

thats an awesome album. unfortunately my copy is digital, but yea

FTN wrote:thats an awesome album. unfortunately my copy is digital, but yea

Dizzy wrote A Night In Tunisia on a garbage can. You don't even need to ask, Art tells you, seriously!

Putt Putt wrote:Most definitely - I'm a musician & attended Univ of Arts in Philly as a jazz major. In my younger years, I listened to everything & anything but lately more & more find myself leaning towards hard bop - Clifford/Max especially...still enjoy some bigger ensemble stuff (Kenton for the arranging brilliance, Thad Jones/Mel Lewis, Duke, and still have a warm spot in my heart for some of Maynard's 60's & 70's bands.

For vocals I'll go with Ella, Diana Krall, Carmen McCrae, Sinatra...and always and forever - the Nat King Cole Trio.

I may be giving a talk at your school this fall...

If you like Clifford, find the tune (Emarcy Records) called "Gertrudes' bounce"

Singers I break in to categoires...

Ella, Sarah, Carmen, Billie
Betty Carter, Abby Lincoln, Shirley Horn
Chris Connor, Peggy Lee, Anita ODay
Ivy Anderson, Betty Roche,
Lil Green, Ma Rainey

There are a lot of Jazz singes out there now, Diana Krall has the big rep, but there are a lot of singers some good, some ok, a few really good...

Carolyn Leonhart I like. Kitty Margolis is not new, but she can be really good. There are a lot...

Philly the Kid wrote:
I may be giving a talk at your school this fall...

BSG GET TOGETHER #3 :?:

Philly the Kid wrote:
Two, However -- all of this music, most of it -- Classical and Jazz, is based on 12 tone equal temperament and the harmonies and melodies that grow outof that. And it's been exhausted. Both big art forms in Music are stuck. No one is inventing anything new. That's because there is nowhere new to go with what the system can provide for. You can re-combine. You can mix genres and play with forms... but it's all re-synthesis. Post-modern. The "remix" as a concept, or sampling and juxtaposing has gone on in visual and now sound art. But that's it.

I think this wrong on two counts--first, I don't know if music needs to self-consciously evolve. Why? I suppose critics and such need something to talk about. But I think that kind of thing is really tertiary to the music.

Second, I don't see either jazz or classical music as stuck. There's a lot of potential there, even within the conventional 12 tone system. If anything, we've left huge ideas largely unexplored. I think the emphasis on evolution and the shock of the new has perhaps created a sense of exhaustion, when there are tons of ideas left. John Cage by himself had enough ideas to fuel a century of music making.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSulycqZH-U[/youtube]

and it isn't even really unaccessible, as the fact that this was on a game show in the 50s demonstrates. It may have seemed odd, but I think it was recognizable as music.

Philly the Kid wrote:

Putt Putt wrote:Most definitely - I'm a musician & attended Univ of Arts in Philly as a jazz major. In my younger years, I listened to everything & anything but lately more & more find myself leaning towards hard bop - Clifford/Max especially...still enjoy some bigger ensemble stuff (Kenton for the arranging brilliance, Thad Jones/Mel Lewis, Duke, and still have a warm spot in my heart for some of Maynard's 60's & 70's bands.

For vocals I'll go with Ella, Diana Krall, Carmen McCrae, Sinatra...and always and forever - the Nat King Cole Trio.

I may be giving a talk at your school this fall...

If you like Clifford, find the tune (Emarcy Records) called "Gertrudes' bounce"

I may have been gone for too long to truly consider it "my school" anymore...the jazz faculty in the 80's (when the school was still PCPA) was as top flight as could be found anywhere - Larry McKenna, Evan Solot, Billy Zaccagni, Pat Martino, etc.

As far as "Gertrude's Bounce" is concerned, I need no introduction. Let's put it this way - my son's middle name is Clifford. He'll forgive me one day.

This... is Miles Davis and John Coltrane. Stockholm. 1963... two
masters of freedom, playing in a time before their art was corrupted by a zillion cocktail lounge performers who destroyed the legacy of the only American artform -- JAZZ.

I like jazz, but this line in Jerry Maguire cracks me up every time.

I also enjoy the shitty monologue about Miles in Collateral.

"And then all he said was...... COOL."

wank wank

HOLY COW I LOVE ME SOME DIZZY GILLESPIE AND ROY ELDRIDGE ROCKING CHAIR IS THE BEST THING EVER WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Scarlett wrote:This... is Miles Davis and John Coltrane. Stockholm. 1963... two
masters of freedom, playing in a time before their art was corrupted by a zillion $#@! lounge performers who destroyed the legacy of the only American artform -- JAZZ.

I like jazz, but this line in Jerry Maguire cracks me up every time.

Dear Scarlett,

you really had me going there as I thought that quote was free-form from you?!

alas... at least you knew the line!

Putt Putt wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:

Putt Putt wrote:Most definitely - I'm a musician & attended Univ of Arts in Philly as a jazz major. In my younger years, I listened to everything & anything but lately more & more find myself leaning towards hard bop - Clifford/Max especially...still enjoy some bigger ensemble stuff (Kenton for the arranging brilliance, Thad Jones/Mel Lewis, Duke, and still have a warm spot in my heart for some of Maynard's 60's & 70's bands.

For vocals I'll go with Ella, Diana Krall, Carmen McCrae, Sinatra...and always and forever - the Nat King Cole Trio.

I may be giving a talk at your school this fall...

If you like Clifford, find the tune (Emarcy Records) called "Gertrudes' bounce"

I may have been gone for too long to truly consider it "my school" anymore...the jazz faculty in the 80's (when the school was still PCPA) was as top flight as could be found anywhere - Larry McKenna, Evan Solot, Billy Zaccagni, Pat Martino, etc.

As far as "Gertrude's Bounce" is concerned, I need no introduction. Let's put it this way - my son's middle name is Clifford. He'll forgive me one day.

What years were you there? I might know you?

TenuredVulture wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:
Two, However -- all of this music, most of it -- Classical and Jazz, is based on 12 tone equal temperament and the harmonies and melodies that grow outof that. And it's been exhausted. Both big art forms in Music are stuck. No one is inventing anything new. That's because there is nowhere new to go with what the system can provide for. You can re-combine. You can mix genres and play with forms... but it's all re-synthesis. Post-modern. The "remix" as a concept, or sampling and juxtaposing has gone on in visual and now sound art. But that's it.

I think this wrong on two counts--first, I don't know if music needs to self-consciously evolve. Why? I suppose critics and such need something to talk about. But I think that kind of thing is really tertiary to the music.

Second, I don't see either jazz or classical music as stuck. There's a lot of potential there, even within the conventional 12 tone system. If anything, we've left huge ideas largely unexplored. I think the emphasis on evolution and the shock of the new has perhaps created a sense of exhaustion, when there are tons of ideas left. John Cage by himself had enough ideas to fuel a century of music making.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSulycqZH-U[/youtube]

and it isn't even really unaccessible, as the fact that this was on a game show in the 50s demonstrates. It may have seemed odd, but I think it was recognizable as music.

I was mid-stream responding to this and my box crashed -- or restarted after some auto-install I wasn't monitoring...

First of all, thanks for this amazing video... i wuold never have believed it and that's priceless. Awkward, I felt odd about it even 50 years later but it was cool. I saw Cage for the last time at Stanford about 6 months before he passed. He was old and fragile, and apparently had been really down after being mugged twice near his Chelsea apt. ....

Regarding music and evolution n all that.

You can clearly see how musical thinking within Classical and Jazz continuums evolved, harmonically, rhythmically and conceptually. I'm not saying no one will come up with a cool melody, or be a really fantastic player. I'm saying that the fertility that 12 tone equal temperament provided for, is no longer evolving nor capable. You can clearly see how monks chanting in the 1000's evolved to Madrigals in the 1300s to the contrapuntal music of the 1500s to the pre-baroque and later baroque and onward. In Jazz, you can see how Parker grew out of the swing bands, and hard bop out of bop and Miles bringing in space and modal scales and Coltrane moving to a kind of harmonic view in giant steps analagous to Bartok's axis tonality, and Ornette and Cecil and others sort of paralleling the second viennse movt in classical and ultimately post WWii, there's aplace where Malcolm Goldstein, Leroy Jenkins, Brian Ferneyhoug and late Coltrane sort of all merges... in to contemporary music.
And even if the introduce some quarter tones, or do long forms or mixed media, there's no more evolution. There's no next place to take the harmonic possibilties of this system. We are just getting re-mixes and repeating. Wynton Marsalis is a great technical musician and Jazz scholar, his originalk music on occasion is ok. But he didn't invent anything. He wanted to be the modern day Duke Ellington but you don't get to be that by wanting to. Wynton fist went back to the Wayne Shorter 60's on Blue Note, early Wynton and Branford mimicked Miles and Wayne Shorter ...

Classical has the same issues. There has been diatonic chromatic, pantonal, all tonalities and non-tonality have been explored. It can't evolve within itself anymore. The only way that aspect of music can evolve is to let go of 12 tone equal temperament, and explore new tuning systems and eventually micro-tonality.

I also believe that innovation comes when art is reflecting and expressing a time, place, culture, people, sub-culture, movement whatever...

As I said, the greatest innovations in the last 20 years have come in two places, HipHop and Electronica. Hip Hop told new stories and invented some new sounds (scratching) and re-appropriated its own heritage sampling James Brown and Blue Note artists, bringing back the Rhodes sound etc... Electronica also dealt wiht sampling and the use of new tools. Experimental music programs that had once been the only place people could make electronic music, were no longer the elite. Anyone with a Mac or PC and some groovey software could do it. A lot of the original Electronic Musci pioneers stuff seems silly as they had old conceptions and no control over their meidum. Mort Subotnick's Silve APples of the Moon which was some big ground breaking recording is very dated today and can't hold a candle to the sklls of say Jazzanova ....

Anyway -- I didn't say creativity has stopped, or musical expertise, expression, technical mastery etc... I said, that right now, nothing truly knew and not yet heard is being invented. Giant Steps was a new idea, it moved the artform forwards, Jazz was forever changed after it... but there isn't anything like that happening now. I've been dealing with this for a long time, and I'm very clear about what I'm describing.

Conceptual stuff has been done too. Things like Cafe are not so novel or revolutionary in other ways anymore. Tehre's nary a crazy concept or performance art move that hasn't been done. Karen Finely with yams up her ass or whatever you can think of, beleive me, I've been steeped in the avante garde scene...

But for an artform to evolve it has to have somwwhere to go, and new definitions will be needed new ideas and changed assumptions. And, a new kind of music may evolve as Classical and Jazz may be stuck, finite. Unable to go anywhere new really at this point, not withouth expanding the notion of those broad definitions.

You can draw a line from slave hymns and ragtime and dixieland and big band and be bop and hard bop and free jazz etc... where is the line going next?? It hasn't gone anywhere for 20-30 years now...

Not every form can evolve indefinitely...

I'm not being cynical or critical, I will have some jazz playing at my funeral, I'm just describing something that has become clear to me.

Thanks again for the Cage You Tube, that was dope! I have a friend now deceased who would have flipped to see that, he was a huge Cage devotee and performed with him several times.

But why does it have to evolve? Why fetishize the new?

And of course, logically, you can't really prove that it's stopped evolving anyway.

I would argue the 20th century has been so rich musically that it's going to take time two work all this out, and we're not even close to doing that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGrhL49-YQw[/youtube]

TenuredVulture wrote:But why does it have to evolve? Why fetishize the new?

And of course, logically, you can't really prove that it's stopped evolving anyway.

I would argue the 20th century has been so rich musically that it's going to take time two work all this out, and we're not even close to doing that.

Interesting ideas.

Perhaps you are right? The 20th century's curve was exponetial as population grew science and tech and perhaps art too? Maybe it will take a while to work some stuff out or it will go back? I have a vision of people living in small village cultures, and making campfires and still being all tech'd up. Perhaps music will go back too? Maybe these scales and tuning systems are natural to man? They say the first interval a baby sings naturally is a minor third? I don't know...

As for fetishizing the new, that's also an interesting point. Again, I wasn't really making a judgment, just describing what I see adn hear and experience. You are right in that it gets in to the "purpose" of art, and its possible to express within current forms. But I think the reason certain people in hitory were lauded is that they seemed to innovate. Perhaps that won't be the standard for a few centuries, but it will be more about how well you craft and your message? Art as function.

Philly the Kid wrote:I'm not being cynical or critical, I will have some jazz playing at my funeral,...

me too

I've even got a list of tunes in mind

On The Nile (Jackie McLean on the Tolliver tune; music for a New Orleans funeral procession on...something)

Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone (Ella Fitzgerald/Count Basie style)

Whatever Happened To You (O'Day rendition)

Rev_Beezer wrote:HOLY COW I LOVE ME SOME DIZZY GILLESPIE AND ROY ELDRIDGE ROCKING CHAIR IS THE BEST THING EVER WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I like me some Roy Eldridge. I have one of his albums.

Wizlah wrote:

Rev_Beezer wrote:HOLY COW I LOVE ME SOME DIZZY GILLESPIE AND ROY ELDRIDGE ROCKING CHAIR IS THE BEST THING EVER WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I like me some Roy Eldridge. I have one of his albums.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoSAPaThWJE[/youtube]

"Whatchou feel Roy, the heat?"

"No it ain't the heat - it must be that uptown rhythm - 'cause I feel like blowin'!"

"Well blow, Roy, blow!!"

And he does - at about the 2 minute mark

what the hell kind of "dance" is O'Day doing there?

drsmooth wrote:

Wizlah wrote:

Rev_Beezer wrote:HOLY COW I LOVE ME SOME DIZZY GILLESPIE AND ROY ELDRIDGE ROCKING CHAIR IS THE BEST THING EVER WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I like me some Roy Eldridge. I have one of his albums.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoSAPaThWJE[/youtube]

"Whatchou feel Roy, the heat?"

"No it ain't the heat - it must be that uptown rhythm - 'cause I feel like blowin'!"

"Well blow, Roy, blow!!"

And he does - at about the 2 minute mark

what the hell kind of "dance" is O'Day doing there?

Great clip! 40's? early 50's? She's really young there... Roy is young too.

I could spend half my life digging in to old footage on You Tube like this!