Anyway -- I'm impressed how many people are fairly knowledgable about Jazz. How many have seen the Ken Burns series, and did that help you in any way feel like you understood more about Jazz?

Havent seen it.

If anyone wants any specific recommendations in the Jazz realm, just ask.

Here's a quick list of some basics that add to anyone's core collection to get someon started and not too "out there".

Miles Davis -- ESP
Miles Davis -- Miles Smiles
Wayne Shorter -- Ju Ju
Art Blakey -- Indesrtuctible
Are Blkaey -- Album of the Year
Oliver Nelson -- Blues and the Abstract Truth
Larry Young - Unity
McCoy Tyner -- The Real McCoy
McCoy Tyner -- The Greeting
McCoy Tyner -- Super Trios
John Coltrane -- Giant Steps
John Coltrane -- Live at Birdland
John Coltrane -- A Love Supreme
Dave Holland -- Seeds of Time
Art Ensemble of Chicago -- Third Decade
Freddie Hubbard -- Red Clay
Charles Mingus -- Mingus Mingus Mingus
David Murray Octet - Ming
Chico Freeman -- Destiny's Dance
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Geri Allen -- Open on All Side in the Middle

These are pretty much from the 60's 70's and early 80's

I'm not a jazz fan but I am a big classical fan. I don't know that there's much of an analogy to be drawn there.

Philly the Kid wrote:If anyone wants any specific recommendations in the Jazz realm, just ask.

Here's a quick list of some basics that add to anyone's core collection to get someon started and not too "out there".

Miles Davis -- ESP
Miles Davis -- Miles Smiles
Wayne Shorter -- Ju Ju
Art Blakey -- Indesrtuctible
Are Blkaey -- Album of the Year
Oliver Nelson -- Blues and the Abstract Truth
Larry Young - Unity
McCoy Tyner -- The Real McCoy
McCoy Tyner -- The Greeting
McCoy Tyner -- Super Trios
John Coltrane -- Giant Steps
John Coltrane -- Live at Birdland
John Coltrane -- A Love Supreme
Dave Holland -- Seeds of Time
Art Ensemble of Chicago -- Third Decade
Freddie Hubbard -- Red Clay
Charles Mingus -- Mingus Mingus Mingus
David Murray Octet - Ming
Chico Freeman -- Destiny's Dance
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Geri Allen -- Open on All Side in the Middle

These are pretty much from the 60's 70's and early 80's

Disappointing.

Philly the Kid wrote:Anyway -- I'm impressed how many people are fairly knowledgable about Jazz. How many have seen the Ken Burns series, and did that help you in any way feel like you understood more about Jazz?

Yes, I've seen it & did pick up a few things I hadn't known...but really, I thought that he left out many important moments in jazz history in order to focus (almost exclusively it seemed at times) on Louis Armstrong.

A worthy subject of course, but....

I saw the Ken Burns documentary, and if I never see Wynton again, it'll be too soon. It was too personality driven, and did little to explain the music.

And of course, it contributed to the idea that nothing of significance has happened in Jazz since the late 50s.

I think jazz and classical suffer from similar problems--they are far too beholden to their history and tradition, and thus have difficulty reaching audiences who aren't interested in tradition for its own sake. The major institutions of Jazz and Classical tend to be reactionary in their programming, playing in the classical context the "warhorses" or in the jazz context, playing the same standards that were played 50 years ago.

What's interesting is that in the classical world at least, many are beginning to challenge that dynamic. Classical purists are dying out, being replaced a spirit of pluralism, and at the margins, the boundaries between "classical" and other forms of music are disappearing. I suspect Frank Zappa gets a lot more respect in the classical world than he does in the jazz world these days. At the same time, there's a resurgence in interest in what used to be considered "difficult" classical music--Hilary Hahn's recording of Schoenberg's violin concerto was #1 on Billboard's classical chart.

In my own experience, I've found that as I get older, I rarely listen to music as background anymore. Who knows, I might soon become a headphone listener.

And listening to live music, regardless of genre, is a very different experience than listening to recorded music.

I really don't care much about traditions or such things, and I have very little interest in genre or classification--in ptk's words, I guess I'm a sound person.

phatj wrote:I'm not a jazz fan but I am a big classical fan. I don't know that there's much of an analogy to be drawn there.

The analogy is that like Classical, Jazz can be much more advanced technically. They are broad broad terms and represent different cultures. The rhythmic language is different. But they use acoustic instruments and there are some very very advanced musicians in both genres.

When people say Classical -- they usually mean 1650 to 1910 or so... few casual Classical heads listen to much past early 20th century. Nor much before 1600. I don't think many people are digging Nicholas Gombert, circa 1540 court composer for Charles V. It sounds very ancient and way before Baroque stuff like Bach.

Classical music post WWII would probably be far too abstract, dense, cacophnous for most casual listeners.

The other analogy with Classical and Jazz -- some of it -- is that unlike pop forms, the music has larger formal properties. Longer sections, and more complex formal structures. This is not intuitive to many.

Most pop music is 3-5minutes and has forms and sections well understood and grasped easily. So-called Jam bands... are really just 'noodling' for extended periods of time and the harmonic and rhythmic vocabulary is much less sophisticated than Jazz or Contemp Classical, but it is moving away from a short-form/song based listening experinece. And I oftenhave found that people who liked the Dead and some others are more open to certain contemporary musics either in Jazz, Classical or Improv because they are used to that. Of course, many people are on LSD, X, or Dope and it's all a cultural phenomena and not just about "listening", the music is part of a psycho-audio-physico experience.

FTN wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:If anyone wants any specific recommendations in the Jazz realm, just ask.

Here's a quick list of some basics that add to anyone's core collection to get someon started and not too "out there".

Miles Davis -- ESP
Miles Davis -- Miles Smiles
Wayne Shorter -- Ju Ju
Art Blakey -- Indesrtuctible
Are Blkaey -- Album of the Year
Oliver Nelson -- Blues and the Abstract Truth
Larry Young - Unity
McCoy Tyner -- The Real McCoy
McCoy Tyner -- The Greeting
McCoy Tyner -- Super Trios
John Coltrane -- Giant Steps
John Coltrane -- Live at Birdland
John Coltrane -- A Love Supreme
Dave Holland -- Seeds of Time
Art Ensemble of Chicago -- Third Decade
Freddie Hubbard -- Red Clay
Charles Mingus -- Mingus Mingus Mingus
David Murray Octet - Ming
Chico Freeman -- Destiny's Dance
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Geri Allen -- Open on All Side in the Middle

These are pretty much from the 60's 70's and early 80's

Disappointing.

Disappointing? In what sense? Every single title I mentioned is super high quality.

You want a list of avante garde? You want Leroy Jenkins and Andew Cyrille, you want Sun Ra plays Rachmaninoff?

Marilyn Crispell? Cecil Taylor ? Have you heard Ming "Fast Life"???

One of my thesis advisors was Anthony Braxton.

Its disappointing because you project the "I'm enlightened, I'm a huge jazz aficionado" and then you give a list of cookie cutter mainstream jazz albums that any 12 year old could find 5 star reviews of on amazon.com

Can't believe there's no love for Monk on this thread.

I don't claim to be a big jazz head, but I have a lot of Miles, Coltrane, Monk, and Mingus plus some other random LPs. All great stuff.

TenuredVulture wrote:I saw the Ken Burns documentary, and if I never see Wynton again, it'll be too soon. It was too personality driven, and did little to explain the music.

And of course, it contributed to the idea that nothing of significance has happened in Jazz since the late 50s.

I think jazz and classical suffer from similar problems--they are far too beholden to their history and tradition, and thus have difficulty reaching audiences who aren't interested in tradition for its own sake. The major institutions of Jazz and Classical tend to be reactionary in their programming, playing in the classical context the "warhorses" or in the jazz context, playing the same standards that were played 50 years ago.

What's interesting is that in the classical world at least, many are beginning to challenge that dynamic. Classical purists are dying out, being replaced a spirit of pluralism, and at the margins, the boundaries between "classical" and other forms of music are disappearing. I suspect Frank Zappa gets a lot more respect in the classical world than he does in the jazz world these days. At the same time, there's a resurgence in interest in what used to be considered "difficult" classical music--Hilary Hahn's recording of Schoenberg's violin concerto was #1 on Billboard's classical chart.

In my own experience, I've found that as I get older, I rarely listen to music as background anymore. Who knows, I might soon become a headphone listener.

And listening to live music, regardless of genre, is a very different experience than listening to recorded music.

I really don't care much about traditions or such things, and I have very little interest in genre or classification--in ptk's words, I guess I'm a sound person.

I agree partially.

It is true that the institutions (like all institutions) are vested in self-perpetuation. the blue hairs who subscribe to the ballet and symphone and opera (and can afford it) are not necessarily cultural explorers. And Classical for many means the 19century with a touch of the 18th and a dabble here and there of the 20th.

Jazz and Classical, are in a crisis that is two-fold. And oneyou allude to. One, they are disconnected from a culture. They no longer represent and vibrant culture. Hip Hop is probably the most dynamic and influential music/art form of the last 20 years because it so reflective of a culture. It was poetry and sounds and spoke from people's direct experinece. It grew out of time and place.

And yes, there are movements that draw on elements of Classical and Jazz and World and folk and Electronica (don't forget hte influence of technology on sound and music) that give us new hybrids...

Two, However -- all of this music, most of it -- Classical and Jazz, is based on 12 tone equal temperament and the harmonies and melodies that grow outof that. And it's been exhausted. Both big art forms in Music are stuck. No one is inventing anything new. That's because there is nowhere new to go with what the system can provide for. You can re-combine. You can mix genres and play with forms... but it's all re-synthesis. Post-modern. The "remix" as a concept, or sampling and juxtaposing has gone on in visual and now sound art. But that's it.

So newness is going to come in ways we haven't been ready for yet. Like structured micro-tonality. Where you take the space that the 12 tones cover and divide the same space in to 72 discreet pitch points. And build new harmony and melody in a world like this. It's a kind of music that we have no reference point for. Could take millenia to evolve and be understood. The human brain can discenr pitches down to what is called 3cents values. that means we can hear many many more finer discreet pitch sounds.

Imagine a piano that blue, red, green and yellow keys between the black and white keys. It's a whole new world.

I used to perform in a group and we did a lot of music like that. But we were 'winging it', we could make the sounds, but didn't have intuitive understanding on how to make structures from that sound pallette. It was more of an ambience, or an affect than narrative. I may be getting to technical and abstract -- but you madesome good points, but the real move forwards I think is going to come from two things ...

Advances in sound manipulation and new realms that need to be explored that leave much of what has defined us for 1000 years behind. And a closer connection between current culture and the art-forms. Classical and jazz audiences tend to be specialized audiences that require a lot of information -- it isn't just down the block on the corner...

I do think if more people played music it would be a godo thing and I'm supportive of technology that allows lots of people to make beats and mess around.

Top 20

Albert Ayler - Spirits Rejoice
Black Unity Trio - Al Fatiyeh
Brother Ah - Sound Awareness
Peter Brotzmann Trio - For Adolphe Sax
Philip Cohran - On The Beach
John Coltrane - Ole
John Coltrane - Om
Miles Davis - In A Silent Way
Arthur Doyle - Alabama Feeling
Milford Graves - Babi
Andrew Hill - Compulsion!!!!!
William Hooker - Is Eternal Life
Pete La Roca - Turkish Women At The Bath
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds
Duke Pearson - The Phantom
Prince Lasha Quintet feat. Sonny Simmons - The Cry!
Pharoah Sanders - Karma
Archie Shepp - The Magic Of Ju-Ju
Masayuki Takayanagi New-Direction-Unit - Axis/Another Revolvable Thing
Mal Waldron - The Quest

Milford Graves! karn knows whats up.

karn I need to get you into the Zorn world asap

Never happen...I am not "with" him...if I had to try to explain it...I'd say that I find his work too soulless...which I don't intend to be as overly negative as it probably sounds...just that...there's something calculated or commodified in his type of free / avant jazz that leaves me almost invariably dissatisfied.

thats garbage and you know it you have no soul the cat ate it

karn wrote:Never happen...I am not "with" him...if I had to try to explain it...I'd say that I find his work too soulless...which I don't intend to be as overly negative as it probably sounds...just that...there's something calculated or commodified in his type of free / avant jazz that leaves me almost invariably dissatisfied.

Karn, i had no idea you rolled like that... I share the same view of Zorn...

I'd like to say I don't like it but that'd be untrue. I enjoy it as mood music when someone who knows what they are doing chooses the right kind and application. I don't think I'd ever be able to enjoy it as the only music I was listening to at any given time.

Philly the Kid wrote:

karn wrote:Never happen...I am not "with" him...if I had to try to explain it...I'd say that I find his work too soulless...which I don't intend to be as overly negative as it probably sounds...just that...there's something calculated or commodified in his type of free / avant jazz that leaves me almost invariably dissatisfied.

Karn, i had no idea you rolled like that... I share the same view of Zorn...

I doubt you could even list 10 Zorn albums you've listened to without going to wikipedia

FTN wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:

karn wrote:Never happen...I am not "with" him...if I had to try to explain it...I'd say that I find his work too soulless...which I don't intend to be as overly negative as it probably sounds...just that...there's something calculated or commodified in his type of free / avant jazz that leaves me almost invariably dissatisfied.

Karn, i had no idea you rolled like that... I share the same view of Zorn...

I doubt you could even list 10 Zorn albums you've listened to without going to wikipedia

Probably not off the top of my head. I have several Zorn recordings right here on the shelf though... he repersents a piece of the 'downtown NY scene' that was less appealing to me. But he has a huge following of loyal supporters. Just not my bag.Other things I prefer. I've been to Kitchen, knitting factory, Roulette and lots of avante venues over the last 25 years. I've seen most of the heads at one time or another...

karn wrote:Top 20

Albert Ayler - Spirits Rejoice

Huh, my former flatmate just picked up an Ayler Box Set - Holy Ghost, Rare and Previously Unreleased Recordings just yesterday