beezer210 wrote:

dajafi wrote:Seriously, my personal view is that organized religion serves, or served, in a relationship to moral behavior as training wheels serve to learning how to ride a bicycle. You don't need it, but it probably helps ground the practice (living in a positive way) in an individual mind or a societal tradition.

I think for many of the people in the pews on Sunday mornings, this probably applies. They are looking for the question, "what do I need to do to go to heaven?"

It's not about what you need to do to go to heaven. If there is a big, lofty prize at the end of this thing called life, that kind of makes the whole thing cheap, like life is one big long gameshow, and if you do well enough, you win a new car.... or eternal happiness, whatever.

For me, what my faith means is that even though I foul up and sin and whatnot, there is redemption for me that is on a cosmic level and pretty much out of my hands. I hate the question "Are you saved?" I always want to answer, "for what?" My faith means that I am a part of a brotherhood of humanity that needs to take care of itself.

Too many people use their "faith" to find ways/reasons to hate others who aren't like them, be it based on sexual orientation, race, or whatever. I once asked of an adult Sunday School class, "What if some of the local Hispanic community attended service here?" The answer I got is that they would tell them that there is a Spanish-speaking church over in the next town.

That's not a great answer. I would want them to welcome them, to help them with questions that they had, not say, "oh, your kind can worship over there."

To me, belief in a higher power means that we are all a part of a greater brotherhood/sisterhood/personhood and that we need to stop being selfish (cause we all are) and start looking out for one another. That "looking out for one another" doesn't mean that we put our noses in other people's business where it doesn't belong, either, and that we don't use it for rumors or hate-mongering or any of that stuff that many of us love to do.

Alright, I'm rambling. Done.

This is way too reasonable and in no way indicative of the loud religious right.

The Red Tornado wrote:so far-

Heathens 23
God-nuts 22

this board is definitely skewed much more than the general populous, I wonder why?

It generally attracts educated, open-minded, politically independant or left-leaning posters?

Woody wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:so far-

Heathens 23
God-nuts 22

this board is definitely skewed much more than the general populous, I wonder why?

It generally attracts educated, open-minded, politically independant or left-leaning posters?

Careful, dont hit your nose on the chandelier...

The Red Tornado wrote:

beezer210 wrote:

dajafi wrote:Seriously, my personal view is that organized religion serves, or served, in a relationship to moral behavior as training wheels serve to learning how to ride a bicycle. You don't need it, but it probably helps ground the practice (living in a positive way) in an individual mind or a societal tradition.

I think for many of the people in the pews on Sunday mornings, this probably applies. They are looking for the question, "what do I need to do to go to heaven?"

It's not about what you need to do to go to heaven. If there is a big, lofty prize at the end of this thing called life, that kind of makes the whole thing cheap, like life is one big long gameshow, and if you do well enough, you win a new car.... or eternal happiness, whatever.

For me, what my faith means is that even though I foul up and sin and whatnot, there is redemption for me that is on a cosmic level and pretty much out of my hands. I hate the question "Are you saved?" I always want to answer, "for what?" My faith means that I am a part of a brotherhood of humanity that needs to take care of itself.

Too many people use their "faith" to find ways/reasons to hate others who aren't like them, be it based on sexual orientation, race, or whatever. I once asked of an adult Sunday School class, "What if some of the local Hispanic community attended service here?" The answer I got is that they would tell them that there is a Spanish-speaking church over in the next town.

That's not a great answer. I would want them to welcome them, to help them with questions that they had, not say, "oh, your kind can worship over there."

To me, belief in a higher power means that we are all a part of a greater brotherhood/sisterhood/personhood and that we need to stop being selfish (cause we all are) and start looking out for one another. That "looking out for one another" doesn't mean that we put our noses in other people's business where it doesn't belong, either, and that we don't use it for rumors or hate-mongering or any of that stuff that many of us love to do.

Alright, I'm rambling. Done.

This is way too reasonable and in no way indicative of the loud religious right.

Yeah, they'd probably want to burn beezer at the stake.

I wish more self-identifying people of faith thought about it his way.

The Red Tornado wrote:

Woody wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:so far-

Heathens 23
God-nuts 22

this board is definitely skewed much more than the general populous, I wonder why?

It generally attracts educated, open-minded, politically independant or left-leaning posters?

Careful, dont hit your nose on the chandelier...

I wasn't talking about me, stupid

who you calling stupid, douche bag?

The Red Tornado wrote:who you calling stupid, douche bag?

let's not argue in a thread about the Lord, OK?

HITLER

Woody wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:who you calling stupid, douche bag?

let's not argue in a thread about the Lord, OK?

STFU God Boy

phatj wrote:

ace wrote:heathen here

but brought up in an Evangelical Congregational church, which is just this side of crazy

Wait, which side?

this side

I have fond memories of my fifth grade Sunday School teacher describing the inhabitants of hell suffering and watching the maggots crawl under their skin, as they burned for eternity. I'm sure this was followed by "and don't forget to hate the Catholics and the Jews!"

I'm not a member of an organized religeon -- I'm a Methodist. The church I belong to is exceptionally tolerant and very inclusive. We have folks in the congregation who would belong to the religeous right I suppose and also lots of folks like me who are what -- religeous left? -- I'm not exactly sure what to call it.

I'm not willing to put God in a box and say: "This here is the God, the only God. And I understand everything about what she has done and what she wants us to do. And there is only one true way to follow God's word and his teachings. " (I use he and she interchangably in describing God because it's complicated and pretty much impossible to assign a specific gender to God in my view).

I think it's a lot more complicated than that. Anyway, the pastor of this church is a good friend of mine:

http://www.gbgm-umc.org/ravenna/home.html

He has been quite a good influence in the way I think about religeon and God and all of that stuff.

I have a certain way in which I believe and in the way I practice my religeon. And it works well for me (and my wife as well). I don't believe the way I think and the way I live my life works for everyone. God is much bigger than that. There are lots of ways you can live a religeous life and follow God's word. And going to church might not even be part of it.

I'm in a small group with other members of our congregation. We read various books and study the Bible and meet and discuss the things we learn. One important thing we've discovered is that it's pretty important not to judge other people. It's not really up to us to decide if some group or some guy or gal is right or wrong or sinful or whatever. And we shouldn't hate them because they aren't like us or don't think like us. (It's not quite that simple -- but that's a big part of it).

Anyway, it's hard to put that into practice. But you pray and do the best you can and mess up and pray some more and try again.

Anyways, I'm just kinda scratching the surface here and I could type about 50 pages on this subject without too much problem but I'm not going to do that. But this describes a little bit about my beliefs.

smitty is your religeon by chance also known as the Cult of Interchangeable Vowels?

dajafi wrote:
Seriously, my personal view is that organized religion serves, or served, in a relationship to moral behavior as training wheels serve to learning how to ride a bicycle. You don't need it, but it probably helps ground the practice (living in a positive way) in an individual mind or a societal tradition.

I'm frequently in two minds about organised religion. Looking at it's role in Ireland's past history, it's easy to chuck the baby out with the bathwater and say that the Roman Catholic church has been the source of much that is bad in Irish history. Peek across the border, and you scratch your head at the point of any church, given the running fued that has been going on for 400 years+ between the hardy put-upon persecuted protestants and the dispossessed angry catholics (again with the bammer scottish presbyterians - no wonder the english dumped 'em in our neck of the woods).

But for all that, when talking to my mother or seeing some of the older friends of the family who have a very devout yet accommodating faith and a real sense of community spirit, I do wonder whether Irish people should be so quick to put the 'superstition' of the church behind us.

There is no doubt in Ireland at least, that organised religion from the top to the bottom got it into their heads that they knew what was best for a nation, dammit, and they weren't going to let it all go horribly wrong. Worse, they were so convinced they were right that they proceeded to cover up some pretty horrible cases of the community being damaged by the people who were meant to be caring for them.

The cases in the 90s against paedophile priests and various christian orders, the priests (and bishops!) who suddenly admitted to families, institutions like the magdalene houses for single mothers - when the truth came out about these cases and their systematic covering up by the church, the sense of arrogance was perhaps more shocking than the crimes. It left congregations bereft, forcing people to question their own faith - a far cry from the job of a local parish priest. Pretty appalling. Worse, I think it contributed to a lot of my generation assuming that any sense of 'community' was both a pernicious lie and part of an outdated worldview which was hindering them in some way. In fact, combined with the sudden explosion of disposable income amongst the very youngest part of the workforce, Ireland quickly turned into a place I wanted no part of - it didn't feel like a place I could be proud to be from anymore.

But I find it hard to disagree with some of the profound personal spirituality exhibited by some people I've met in Ireland. It's generally exceedingly tolerant, but with a clear moral compass, capable of reflection and inquiry. I've cycled in more remote bits of County Kerry (the sticky out legs/toes of ireland) which were heavily populated by monks living very solitary lives in centuries past. The Dingle Peninsula in particular is littered with little stone 'beehive' huts set in gorgeous countryside - if I stepped out to that every morning with nothing but my own thoughts, I might also turn to god. It's easy to see how their faith and spirituality, reinforced by the solitude of those surroundings fed into great art and writing of 8th century onwards. That sense of the artistic value of spirituality is a strong part of Irish Christianity and Irish catholicism, I think.

To get to my main point (finally)(prompted by one of yours):

dajafi wrote:1) A peer group and/or "higher power" to which one can turn for support or consolation

I think religion is at its best when it can provide spaces for people to explore and strengthen their own spirituality - it can actually promote an inquistive and questioning mind. I've seen the value of its support of a community ideal as well, and I think that too is valuable.

Sadly, with the 20th century still fresh in my memory, there's also no way I'll ever trust organised religion. I don't know how you set checks and balances against the power that most organised faiths can wield.

Woody wrote:smitty is your religeon by chance also known as the Cult of Interchangeable Vowels?

Could be. Spelling is not a strength, that's for sure. I should have edited a little bit but I don't sometimes. I don't think I'll burn in hell for it though.

dajafi wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:

beezer210 wrote:

dajafi wrote:Seriously, my personal view is that organized religion serves, or served, in a relationship to moral behavior as training wheels serve to learning how to ride a bicycle. You don't need it, but it probably helps ground the practice (living in a positive way) in an individual mind or a societal tradition.

I think for many of the people in the pews on Sunday mornings, this probably applies. They are looking for the question, "what do I need to do to go to heaven?"

It's not about what you need to do to go to heaven. If there is a big, lofty prize at the end of this thing called life, that kind of makes the whole thing cheap, like life is one big long gameshow, and if you do well enough, you win a new car.... or eternal happiness, whatever.

For me, what my faith means is that even though I foul up and sin and whatnot, there is redemption for me that is on a cosmic level and pretty much out of my hands. I hate the question "Are you saved?" I always want to answer, "for what?" My faith means that I am a part of a brotherhood of humanity that needs to take care of itself.

Too many people use their "faith" to find ways/reasons to hate others who aren't like them, be it based on sexual orientation, race, or whatever. I once asked of an adult Sunday School class, "What if some of the local Hispanic community attended service here?" The answer I got is that they would tell them that there is a Spanish-speaking church over in the next town.

That's not a great answer. I would want them to welcome them, to help them with questions that they had, not say, "oh, your kind can worship over there."

To me, belief in a higher power means that we are all a part of a greater brotherhood/sisterhood/personhood and that we need to stop being selfish (cause we all are) and start looking out for one another. That "looking out for one another" doesn't mean that we put our noses in other people's business where it doesn't belong, either, and that we don't use it for rumors or hate-mongering or any of that stuff that many of us love to do.

Alright, I'm rambling. Done.

This is way too reasonable and in no way indicative of the loud religious right.

Yeah, they'd probably want to burn beezer at the stake.

I wish more self-identifying people of faith thought about it his way.

I think a lot do. But they tend to spend their time constructively, rather going on about the sins of others, or in cases where their own sins are exposed, making gaudy public confessions. I wonder why prominent people rarely confess until after they've been caught?

ace wrote:

phatj wrote:

ace wrote:heathen here

but brought up in an Evangelical Congregational church, which is just this side of crazy

Wait, which side?

this side

I have fond memories of my fifth grade Sunday School teacher describing the inhabitants of hell suffering and watching the maggots crawl under their skin, as they burned for eternity. I'm sure this was followed by "and don't forget to hate the Catholics and the Jews!"

I recall how surprising it was to find out that some Christian denominations believe Catholics are not Christians, but pegans. Also, such tolerant and enlightened organizations like the KKK hate Catholics as much as they hate Jews. It's also wierd that the predominant language of Latin America is Spanish, not Latin.

I grew up Baptist. I always hated going to church, and my faith varied from weak to fairly strong, but I always believed in God. Stopped attending church when I was old enough to where my mom couldn't tell me I had to go anymore. The older I get, the more cynical and skeptical I get. I'd like to believe in a God, but I just doubt too much. Sometimes when things are going bad, I'll find myself praying, but I'm not sure to what or whom or if I'm even praying at all and not just wishing "will somebody please help me".

I am a Christian but am currently just in a phase where I would feel very hypocritical if I were to pray and interact with God. Not that I am a bad person, just don't exactly live my life according to the Good Book.

What comedian was it who said "I was born and raised Catholic, so obviously now, I'm an atheist" ?

WilliamC wrote:I am a Christian but am currently just in a phase where I would feel very hypocritical if I were to pray and interact with God. Not that I am a bad person, just don't exactly live my life according to the Good Book.

This implies a lot, though--that you're accepting some received wisdom about the nature of God, how to honor God, and what God wants.