Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby Wolfgang622 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:31:44

PSUsarge wrote:Interesting interview by Phila Magazine with Ed Rendell - https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/02/ ... =instagram

Ed would, in fact, become a master of hardball politics as mayor, wheeling and dealing with John Street and Vince Fumo and John Dougherty, just the sort of old-school players the progressive wing of his party now wants dead and buried.

I challenge Ed on how he justified working with Dougherty back in the ’90s. “Nobody is all good or all bad,” he says. “John and the [electricians] union were very helpful in getting things Philly needed. Now, it might have been in their self-interest, but it gave us political clout in Harrisburg we wouldn’t have had on our own. That’s why a lot of well-intentioned progressives don’t get stuff done. You take your allies where you find them.”


It's funny how much this reporter seems to miss the drift of the current zeitgeist, and how perfectly he encapsulates it in this exactly, inversely wrong sentence/question. The question being asked by millions upon millions of progressives and workers is not, "Why did you, politician X, choose to work with Union leader Y?" It is exactly the opposite: "Why did you, Johnny Dougherty (or Union Leader Y), choose to work with obviously bought-and-paid-for by the investor class/monied interests Ed Rendell (or Politician X)?"

Not, "Hillary Clinton, why did you choose to work with Richard Trumka of the AFL-CIO?"

But, "Richard Trumka, why did you work with tool-of-Wall-Street Hillary Clinton, after her husband had sold us down the river with NAFTA?"

The question he asks is top-down. The moment is bottom-up. The elite media, the elite members of the DNC, the GOP, etc. - this is what they fail, utterly, to grasp. The GOP gets it now - only because they were made to.

On another matter:

I do wonder exactly how this cycle will go, assuming Sanders closes the deal. Wall Street will be jittery. If Sanders is leading polls throughout the summer, do stocks prices and futures drop as fears among investors increase? Does this become a self-fulfilling prophecy and drive the beginning of a recession that spooks the electorate? If it does, do they go out-party in response?

If Wall Street holds it together, but Bernie wins anyway, I assume the stock market tank and the recession will begin forthwith. The rich can't stand to see the peasants in charge.

Uncle Milty, I think Bernie can win PA. Will he? Time will tell. Biden certainly probably would win PA. Would he win MI and WI? Eh. It is too bad he lost so much off the fastball.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:43:42

I think the "we need to nominate a moderate" faction messed up by supporting Biden in the invisible primary. They confused his early support that was primarily a function of name recognition and a bunch of memes with actual support.

Could it have been Kamala Harris or Klobuchar or someone else? I don't know.

But the one lesson from Trump that everyone needs to understand is that a Republican can win (and probably the only way a Republican can win) is not by reaching out to persuadables, but by energizing the base. Trump isn't reaching out, and he never has reached out.

I am not, and have never been a fan of Bernie. But....I wonder if he can get other elements of the Dem coalition excited. Some have pointed to his Nevada victory as evidence he can get Latinx voters excited. Could be huge...not just in your Florida/Arizona type states, but maybe in Iowa.

I do think a lot of Bloomberg people live in a bubble of primarily white, educated, and generally affluent voters who would probably be Republicans except for things like abortion and maybe the environment as long as they don't have to give up their Range Rover. That's a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition though.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby TomatoPie » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:58:03

TenuredVulture wrote:I think the "we need to nominate a moderate" faction messed up by supporting Biden in the invisible primary.
Could it have been Kamala Harris or Klobuchar or someone else?


I like Harris and felt she had the star power to win, but she's not a moderate.

Still boggles my mind that the best candidate never got any traction at all - Cory Booker.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby Wolfgang622 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:12:56

TomatoPie wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:I think the "we need to nominate a moderate" faction messed up by supporting Biden in the invisible primary.
Could it have been Kamala Harris or Klobuchar or someone else?


I like Harris and felt she had the star power to win, but she's not a moderate.

Still boggles my mind that the best candidate never got any traction at all - Cory Booker.


If he were the best candidate, he would have.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby swishnicholson » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:15:30

TomatoPie wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:I think the "we need to nominate a moderate" faction messed up by supporting Biden in the invisible primary.
Could it have been Kamala Harris or Klobuchar or someone else?


I like Harris and felt she had the star power to win, but she's not a moderate.

Still boggles my mind that the best candidate never got any traction at all - Cory Booker.


I guess i'm slightly interested in why you wouldn't characterize Harris as a moderate in this field. I think your faith in Booker is entirely misplaced, though. He has a good story and a good resume, and is probably a very decent guy, but is mostly regarded in NJ as an empty suit entirely beholden to the Democratic powers-that-be, and without any new or thoughtful policy initiatives. Certainly completely lost me when his first appearances were under the auspices of the Great-and-Powerful George Norcross. The lack of interest he stirred up in the debates and public interest were entirely foreseeable, and merited.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby momadance » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:26:53

A Senator from NJ, or anyone from NJ politics for that matter, will never be the best candidate

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:31:13

Well, in my long history of never backing the Democratic primary winner, I thought Bill Bradley was the best candidate in 2000.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby momadance » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:41:55

TenuredVulture wrote:Well, in my long history of never backing the Democratic primary winner, I thought Bill Bradley was the best candidate in 2000.


To be fair, he wasn't raised in NJ.

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby TomatoPie » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:03:06

swishnicholson wrote:
I guess i'm slightly interested in why you wouldn't characterize Harris as a moderate in this field.


She's certainly not as far left as Bernie, Warren, and Yang.

I liked her AG background and her charisma, but I began to like her less when I learned more about her policy positions, such as:

1) Opposition to USMCA and TPP
2) Deep cuts to defense spending
3) Eat less meat to combat climate change

She is probably moderate among Democrats, just not moderate among Americans to the degree of Pete, Amy, Joe.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby pacino » Mon Feb 24, 2020 13:16:59

Booker is good at creating a persona. He's also good at selling out public education.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby PSUsarge » Mon Feb 24, 2020 13:22:24

TenuredVulture wrote:But the one lesson from Trump that everyone needs to understand is that a Republican can win (and probably the only way a Republican can win) is not by reaching out to persuadables, but by energizing the base. Trump isn't reaching out, and he never has reached out.

I am not, and have never been a fan of Bernie. But....I wonder if he can get other elements of the Dem coalition excited. Some have pointed to his Nevada victory as evidence he can get Latinx voters excited. Could be huge...not just in your Florida/Arizona type states, but maybe in Iowa.

This is true, but that goes back to azrider's post - it wouldn't be Trump's base vs. Bernie's base, it would be capitalism vs. socialism. I think you'd see a lot more folks turn out to vote against socialism - regardless of feelings about Trump - than you did to vote against Trump in 2016. Enough people just didn't vote for a President (effectively a vote for Trump) because they also disliked Hillary and/or didn't seriously think Donald Trump could actually become President.

TenuredVulture wrote:I do think a lot of Bloomberg people live in a bubble of primarily white, educated, and generally affluent voters who would probably be Republicans except for things like abortion and maybe the environment as long as they don't have to give up their Range Rover. That's a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition though.

Would agree with this anecdotally. While they might be a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition, this is also a group that Hillary did well with in 2016 that absolutely isn't going for Bernie. Goes back to my question above - how much does the threat of socialism energize this base to vote against Bernie?

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Feb 24, 2020 13:33:35

PSUsarge wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:But the one lesson from Trump that everyone needs to understand is that a Republican can win (and probably the only way a Republican can win) is not by reaching out to persuadables, but by energizing the base. Trump isn't reaching out, and he never has reached out.

I am not, and have never been a fan of Bernie. But....I wonder if he can get other elements of the Dem coalition excited. Some have pointed to his Nevada victory as evidence he can get Latinx voters excited. Could be huge...not just in your Florida/Arizona type states, but maybe in Iowa.

This is true, but that goes back to azrider's post - it wouldn't be Trump's base vs. Bernie's base, it would be capitalism vs. socialism. I think you'd see a lot more folks turn out to vote against socialism - regardless of feelings about Trump - than you did to vote against Trump in 2016. Enough people just didn't vote for a President (effectively a vote for Trump) because they also disliked Hillary and/or didn't seriously think Donald Trump could actually become President.

TenuredVulture wrote:I do think a lot of Bloomberg people live in a bubble of primarily white, educated, and generally affluent voters who would probably be Republicans except for things like abortion and maybe the environment as long as they don't have to give up their Range Rover. That's a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition though.

Would agree with this anecdotally. While they might be a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition, this is also a group that Hillary did well with in 2016 that absolutely isn't going for Bernie. Goes back to my question above - how much does the threat of socialism energize this base to vote against Bernie?


I would guess it does a bit. But the real question is whether that's offset by other people who otherwise wouldn't vote turning out for a Bernie candidacy. Let me be clear, I don't really know anything about electability, but if I had to guess, Bloomberg is the least electable of the final six, followed by Bernie.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby Monkeyboy » Mon Feb 24, 2020 13:48:37

PSUsarge wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:But the one lesson from Trump that everyone needs to understand is that a Republican can win (and probably the only way a Republican can win) is not by reaching out to persuadables, but by energizing the base. Trump isn't reaching out, and he never has reached out.

I am not, and have never been a fan of Bernie. But....I wonder if he can get other elements of the Dem coalition excited. Some have pointed to his Nevada victory as evidence he can get Latinx voters excited. Could be huge...not just in your Florida/Arizona type states, but maybe in Iowa.

This is true, but that goes back to azrider's post - it wouldn't be Trump's base vs. Bernie's base, it would be capitalism vs. socialism. I think you'd see a lot more folks turn out to vote against socialism - regardless of feelings about Trump - than you did to vote against Trump in 2016. Enough people just didn't vote for a President (effectively a vote for Trump) because they also disliked Hillary and/or didn't seriously think Donald Trump could actually become President.

TenuredVulture wrote:I do think a lot of Bloomberg people live in a bubble of primarily white, educated, and generally affluent voters who would probably be Republicans except for things like abortion and maybe the environment as long as they don't have to give up their Range Rover. That's a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition though.

Would agree with this anecdotally. While they might be a tiny sliver of the Dem coalition, this is also a group that Hillary did well with in 2016 that absolutely isn't going for Bernie. Goes back to my question above - how much does the threat of socialism energize this base to vote against Bernie?



I've gone back and forth with this, but it seems to me that not a lot of people outside of liberals really know what Sanders is about. They have the socialism label for him and that's about it. I think it will come down to if he can make the case for his vision when the debates (assuming there are debates) and town halls come. I think he can make a powerful case that Trump is just as socialist, but he is socialist for rich people. I think that's a very compelling (and correct) argument.

My one question is if Sanders will be allowed to define himself. If he is, then I think he has a good shot, especially with Trump's negative numbers. I mean, a whole lot of people say they will "never" vote for Trump. If Sanders can energize the base, I think it will be hard for Trump to find enough people to vote for him. If Sanders is not able or allowed to define himself, then I think we'll see four more years of a march towards fascism. Unfortunately, if this board and the early coverage by media elites is any indication, I fear Sanders will not be allowed to define himself. I'm sure we'll be hearing tons of otherwise intelligent people conflate socialism and communism. Lots of people, including liberals, would prefer the status quo, even if it means risking everything for the country. They'll have their second house in the Hamptons or wherever, not matter what the cost.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby azrider » Mon Feb 24, 2020 13:54:35

On 60 Minutes, Bernie says it’s ‘unfair to say everything is bad’ about Cuban revolution

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politi ... 74801.html

“We’re very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba, but, you know, it’s simply unfair to say everything is bad,”


i agree with you MB, but we live in a world of sound bites and 280 characters and unfortunately i don't think many people will listen to his explanation of this.

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby CalvinBall » Mon Feb 24, 2020 14:16:58

Everything Dems have done for decades the other side has called socialist. If we nominate Bloomberg he will be called a socialist too.

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby azrider » Mon Feb 24, 2020 14:23:32

CalvinBall wrote:Everything Dems have done for decades the other side has called socialist. If we nominate Bloomberg he will be called a socialist too.


it's one thing being called one and a completely different thing admitting to be one.

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby Bucky » Mon Feb 24, 2020 14:28:49

you sure about that? At least as far as 'electability' is concerned....

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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby 06hawkalum » Mon Feb 24, 2020 14:29:52

azrider wrote:
CalvinBall wrote:Everything Dems have done for decades the other side has called socialist. If we nominate Bloomberg he will be called a socialist too.


it's one thing being called one and a completely different thing admitting to be one.


Maybe so, maybe not.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby Wolfgang622 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 14:34:48

azrider wrote:On 60 Minutes, Bernie says it’s ‘unfair to say everything is bad’ about Cuban revolution

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politi ... 74801.html

“We’re very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba, but, you know, it’s simply unfair to say everything is bad,”


i agree with you MB, but we live in a world of sound bites and 280 characters and unfortunately i don't think many people will listen to his explanation of this.


True, but god forbid we have a candidate who doesn't think in those terms. You cannot evaluate the Cuban revolution simply by looking at how it is now; you must also look at what it replaced. There is little doubt that Fulgencio Batista and his military dictatorship got exactly - exactly - what it deserved.
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Re: Politics: What’s so Super about Tuesday?

Postby azrider » Mon Feb 24, 2020 15:03:42

unfortunately other than me, you (wolf) and probably 2% of the population, no one wants to sit through a 300 level course on the history of cuba. they will however be fascinated with pictures of fidel in uniform, the rafts with people hanging on trying to leave and the exquisite collection of 1950s cars still on the road.
Last edited by azrider on Mon Feb 24, 2020 15:12:07, edited 1 time in total.

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