jerseyhoya wrote:
Over the past week it looks like the GOP conference is leaning toward something of a plan to call witnesses, but for each witness the Dems want, the GOP will add someone they want.

Here is the GOP list:

Hunter Biden
Joe Biden
Hillary Clinton
Benghazi Widows and family
Crooked Ukraine Prosecutor
Sean Hannity
Judge Crazy Pants
Brebart editors
Q

Imagine if she had just sent them over and we were in the middle of the trial right now. It would be a whole different world. Certainly there would be zero pressure on these people to call witnesses. The entire case for impeachment was made in the past three weeks when it was maybe the 5th biggest story in the country and support for it has stalled or declined depending on the poll, and not when it was the thing leading the nightly news.

I said on the day of impeachment that Pelosi holding impeachment articles would not do her any favors in getting Republican senators to side against McConnell, and that she would fold and send the articles over after McConnell didn't budge. These very predictable things happened in predictable fashion.

jerseyhoya wrote:Imagine if she had just sent them over and we were in the middle of the trial right now. It would be a whole different world. Certainly there would be zero pressure on these people to call witnesses. The entire case for impeachment was made in the past three weeks when it was maybe the 5th biggest story in the country and support for it has stalled or declined depending on the poll, and not when it was the thing leading the nightly news.

I said on the day of impeachment that Pelosi holding impeachment articles would not do her any favors in getting Republican senators to side against McConnell, and that she would fold and send the articles over after McConnell didn't budge. These very predictable things happened in predictable fashion.

Ehh I think the stall initially looked pretty stupid and desperate, but it is paying dividends now. Had she sent them over right away the trial could have well been over by now, maybe even with a dismissal vote, before this new evidence even dropped. Let’s not assume that Iran would not have happened and disrupted the news coverage mid trial either.

Senators now are definitely going to be under more pressure to at least grant additional documented and witness evidence given what has come out the last few days. With each witness that comes to the stand and additional documents that are released the likelihood of removal becomes less of a pipe dream and more of a possibility.

Impeachment trial would be over by now if she sent them over. Three days for each side, not witnesses.

Don't know why you continue to ignore all the things that have happened in the last 8-9 days.

Let's not forget her real motive - tying up senators so Joe can win Iowa.

*joking ,sorta

But the ceremonial pens were stupid and unnecessary — just giving the republicans another talking point for their base to latch on. Democrats can’t afford many unforced errors and that was one, however trivial it actually is.

There's ceremonial pens for everything they sign

One thing has changed since before Christmas that might materially affect the trial and that's Bolton saying he's willing to testify if subpoenaed, which was something that happened as a result of the House passing impeachment articles rendering his court case moot and him deciding personally to make that choice since the courts weren't going to make it for him. That was something that was not adjusted by an altered timeline. And if he does testify I think that's one of the few things that could move the needle outside of a tape coming out of Trump explicitly ordering people to do bad crimes.

The other big change is now the trial is likely to last through the Iowa caucuses rather than ending a few weeks before them, which will probably be annoying for Sanders, Warren and Klobuchar. Everything else is noise at the edges.

jerseyhoya wrote:One thing has changed since before Christmas that might materially affect the trial and that's Bolton saying he's willing to testify if subpoenaed, which was something that happened as a result of the House passing impeachment articles rendering his court case moot and him deciding personally to make that choice since the courts weren't going to make it for him. That was something that was not adjusted by an altered timeline. And if he does testify I think that's one of the few things that could move the needle outside of a tape coming out of Trump explicitly ordering people to do bad crimes.

The other big change is now the trial is likely to last through the Iowa caucuses rather than ending a few weeks before them, which will probably be annoying for Sanders, Warren and Klobuchar. Everything else is noise at the edges.

Not sure how you can say the texts and handwritten notes are noise at the edge but ok.... and I think most Iowans have their minds made up at this point, there’s too much credence given to last minute campaigning.

CalvinBall wrote:There's ceremonial pens for everything they sign

That may be true, was still stupid.

Just in case you have think robot Collins is some kind of independent minded moderate. She’s not.

thephan wrote:Just in case you have think robot Collins is some kind of independent minded moderate. She’s not.

This lends to the theory that the house rushed their end of the process, and again was a blunder on the part of the democrats. Gives the republicans talking points, which is all they were hoping for knowing that the actual evidence is extremely damning. Now they will crow about how the process was shoddy, as they stated at the onset, and that the democrats are just desperate to make a case now — and use impeachment rules as reasoning as to why additional evidence shouldn’t be permitted.

Kman223 wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:One thing has changed since before Christmas that might materially affect the trial and that's Bolton saying he's willing to testify if subpoenaed, which was something that happened as a result of the House passing impeachment articles rendering his court case moot and him deciding personally to make that choice since the courts weren't going to make it for him. That was something that was not adjusted by an altered timeline. And if he does testify I think that's one of the few things that could move the needle outside of a tape coming out of Trump explicitly ordering people to do bad crimes.

The other big change is now the trial is likely to last through the Iowa caucuses rather than ending a few weeks before them, which will probably be annoying for Sanders, Warren and Klobuchar. Everything else is noise at the edges.

Not sure how you can say the texts and handwritten notes are noise at the edge but ok.... and I think most Iowans have their minds made up at this point, there’s too much credence given to last minute campaigning.

The texts and handwritten notes are still a level removed from Trump. They don't bring a whole lot to the table I don't think that we haven't already gotten from Taylor and Vindman and Hill and the rest. The whole thing is a sordid mess, and our president is a corrupt moron. But I think most senators already know that, and fewer than half are gonna vote to convict as things stand. If the Parnas stuff serves as a lever to get momentum for subpoenaing Rudy to testify then they would be a 2nd big change, but I think the attorney stuff makes that harder and I'd be surprised if that happened.

In order to actually break through I think you need someone senior who was in the room with Trump, not second hand stuff. I don't know what Bolton would say, but he could plausibly know enough, be willing to say shit that upends every defense so far, and have contemporaneous notes/evidence to back everything up.

As for Iowa, I think most polling shows there's a lot of indecision right now, and the top four are so close they could plausibly finish in any order. I do think there might be some line for the senators to take to use being taken off the trial to do their duty to their advantage or at least mitigate any losses from being off the trail. Beyond trying to get on CNN and MSNBC every night I'm not sure what that is, but maybe one of them works it out.

Apparently Parnas started his career working for Fred Trump. Good times.

jerseyhoya wrote:Yes she flip flopped from having the same position this entire time, to keeping it

It has been obvious for a month now that McConnell has all 53 GOP Senators on the same page for the trial procedure getting underway following what was done during Clinton's impeachment for the House and President's teams to have their say, then for the Senate to decide afterward which witnesses should be called, if any

And it has been similarly obvious that Romney, Collins and Murkowski are inclined to support calling witnesses at the end of that stage

And that they will need to persuade a fourth in order for witnesses to be called

Over the past week it looks like the GOP conference is leaning toward something of a plan to call witnesses, but for each witness the Dems want, the GOP will add someone they want.

Witnesses are needed to cut through Trump's unwillingness to allow anyone to testify and share documents. The two impeachments are COMPLETELY different and have to be treated differently. I wish the GOP would stop acting like the situations are the same.

And their proposal sounds reasonable until you realize who they will likely call as witnesses, witnesses to conspiracy theories right off the front pages of Pravda. It's a shame one of the two main political parties is being held captive by a foreign adversary. I'm sure Putin is having a laugh at the aid and comfort the GOP is providing him while he attacks our electoral system, the foundation of any democracy.

CalvinBall wrote:Impeachment trial would be over by now if she sent them over. Three days for each side, not witnesses.

Don't know why you continue to ignore all the things that have happened in the last 8-9 days.

because it fits his narrative. I mean, even throwing out the fact that the president attacked a foreign country in the middle of this (I guess pelosi should have known he'd do that), at the time the House finsihed off its investigation, most of the talk was of the senate moving to dismiss immediately. JH is acting like we would be in the middle of the trial right now when it would actually probably be over.

And the House doesn't have to be finished. Pelosi hinted that they may call additional witnesses there if the GOP doesn't have a fair trial. The dems are playing offense and the GOP is reacting and looking weaker and weaker. The president is nearly impotent.

I don't know if you get different news, different perspective from others or are just optimistic but that's not my feeling of things here.

Democrats are still "WE GOT HIM!" after every morsel and Republicans are still "SHAM! NOTHING TO SEE HERE. "

What I mean is that dems are acting and republicans are reacting. The GOP isn’t really driving the narrative for the first time in years. Their supporters are still their supporters because they’re brainwashed by years of the GOP driving the narrative. But the GOP isn’t running the 24 hour news cycle for the first time in a long time, IMO. The house and media continues with the drip drip drip and all trump can do is tweet nonsense. Barring another Iran situation it could stay like this for months and that eventually will take it’s toll. If much more is uncovered and I think it will be, the investigations will continue right through the election. Over time, this will make Trump look weaker and weaker

To add one more point, I think people underestimate how much of Trump’s popularity comes from the appearance of strength. That’s what Iran was about. He is looking more and more impotent

thephan wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:
Over the past week it looks like the GOP conference is leaning toward something of a plan to call witnesses, but for each witness the Dems want, the GOP will add someone they want.

Here is the GOP list:

Hunter Biden
Joe Biden
Hillary Clinton
Benghazi Widows and family
Crooked Ukraine Prosecutor
Sean Hannity
Judge Crazy Pants
Brebart editors
Q

I'm sure the first two names are for sure but please tell us that the rest of the list is tongue-in-cheek. Pretty please.....