Ok Brantt, he's just a misogynist then.

Happy now?

Brantt wrote:
LOL.

Oh yes, Kid Rock is now a racist.

Nevermind his son is half black, he's received awards from the NAACP and he's done more for the city of Detroit than almost anyone in Michigan over the last ten to fifteen years. He also hasn't "included a confederate flag in his act" for almost a decade.

You know, I didn’t know he had given it up - “quietly”, as one report stated - and now that I think about it, it occurs to me:



He was a horse’s ass then, and he still is now. Unless he cares to make a public statement to his fans about how he gave it up BECAUSE he was wrong, and explain to them WHY he was wrong, I don’t give a damn if he “gave it up.”

06hawkalum wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:Sweeping student debt elimination is bogus. Speaking for myself and others who realized a college education was not feasible, and seizing a chance to quote the Buzzcocks:

What do I get?

A generation of young workers with a ton of newly found disposable income to plow back into the economy.

Your attitude about this matter reminds me of the olds complaining about paying property tax because "I don't have any kids in school."

Everyone benefits from a better educated, less debt-encumbered workforce.

jerseyhoya wrote:Why not have the government pay off everyone's mortgages, car loans and credit card bills while we're at it

No debt for anybody!

And we can take those savings and invest in avocado toast futures. Everyone wins!

jerseyhoya wrote:Why not have the government pay off everyone's mortgages, car loans and credit card bills while we're at it

No debt for anybody!

I know you're just being an a-hole here, but I wonder if it would cost as much as the bailouts of the big banks and car companies. Maybe NOT all debt, but what would it cost to wipe away "most" debt?

Like, instead of giving Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $200 billion, why not just pay off the loans that caused the issue? Why not pay off $200 billion in loans? The bank gets the money, anyway, and people could stay in their homes. Suddenly, have reduced stress and more available income to save/invest, etc.

PhillieMooDo wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:Why not have the government pay off everyone's mortgages, car loans and credit card bills while we're at it

No debt for anybody!

I know you're just being an a-hole here, but I wonder if it would cost as much as the bailouts of the big banks and car companies. Maybe NOT all debt, but what would it cost to wipe away "most" debt?

Like, instead of giving Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $200 billion, why not just pay off the loans that caused the issue? Why not pay off $200 billion in loans? The bank gets the money, anyway, and people could stay in their homes. Suddenly, have reduced stress and more available income to save/invest, etc.

TARP returned $15 million more to the government than it cost, so it would cost a lot more than -$15 billion.



According to this graphic, found on the Internet so almost certainly accurate, Americans have over $13 trillion in personal debt. Which is 3x the entire federal budget. Wiping out most of it would be costly. And deeply unfair to people who have paid off their mortgages or student loans or car or rented rather than buying or whatever else. And terrible public policy. And lots of other things.

Wolfgang622 wrote:

Brantt wrote:
LOL.

Oh yes, Kid Rock is now a racist.

Nevermind his son is half black, he's received awards from the NAACP and he's done more for the city of Detroit than almost anyone in Michigan over the last ten to fifteen years. He also hasn't "included a confederate flag in his act" for almost a decade.

You know, I didn’t know he had given it up - “quietly”, as one report stated - and now that I think about it, it occurs to me:



He was a horse’s ass then, and he still is now. Unless he cares to make a public statement to his fans about how he gave it up BECAUSE he was wrong, and explain to them WHY he was wrong, I don’t give a damn if he “gave it up.”

Uh, That is exactly what he did. It was right after getting his NAACP award in 2011. He said the award touched him more than anything he had ever received and after talking to local leaders he had a better understanding of what the flag represented to them.

He had used it as a symbol of Southern rock that started when he toured with Skynyrd.

06hawkalum wrote:Ok Brantt, he's just a misogynist then.

Happy now?

Fair

jerseyhoya wrote:

PhillieMooDo wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:Why not have the government pay off everyone's mortgages, car loans and credit card bills while we're at it

No debt for anybody!

I know you're just being an a-hole here, but I wonder if it would cost as much as the bailouts of the big banks and car companies. Maybe NOT all debt, but what would it cost to wipe away "most" debt?

Like, instead of giving Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $200 billion, why not just pay off the loans that caused the issue? Why not pay off $200 billion in loans? The bank gets the money, anyway, and people could stay in their homes. Suddenly, have reduced stress and more available income to save/invest, etc.

TARP returned $15 million more to the government than it cost, so it would cost a lot more than -$15 billion.



According to this graphic, found on the Internet so almost certainly accurate, Americans have over $13 trillion in personal debt. Which is 3x the entire federal budget. Wiping out most of it would be costly. And deeply unfair to people who have paid off their mortgages or student loans or car or rented rather than buying or whatever else. And terrible public policy. And lots of other things.

Well, we all know the government is very interested in fair policy.

Seriously, though, and I doubt there's been much study on the benefits, but what if most Americans woke up with substantially lower debt, and more disposable income? Wouldn't that generate a fuck-ton of revenue (jobs, retail, taxes, etc.)? So, maybe it doesn't pay for itself, and then some, but what if, I don't know, we fucking helped our citizens?

I'm just not terribly worried about those that have been fortunate enough to pay off their debts, and them crying "It's not fair". One, get the fuck over it. Two, it's been discussed, at length, that the play field has drastically changed over the last 20 or so years. Drastic policy might be necessary.

There is never money for anything except war, subsidies for oil companies, militarizing the police, you know, things that aren't "terrible public policy."

Doing good and kind things for your citizens like forgiving unfair school debt and giving them free healthcare is bad because this graph here says it costs a lot

Also congrats to the 40 year olds of the board who've successfully paid off 20k in debt. Kids these days are coming out w 100k debt regardless of major. But its unfair because you had to suffer once so why shouldn't these kids

Insulin costs $1200/month in this country for people without insurance but we're doing good because the stock market went up today

td11 wrote:There is never money for anything except war, subsidies for oil companies, militarizing the police, you know, things that aren't "terrible public policy."

Doing good and kind things for your citizens like forgiving unfair school debt and giving them free healthcare is bad because this graph here says it costs a lot

Also congrats to the 40 year olds of the board who've successfully paid off 20k in debt. Kids these days are coming out w 100k debt regardless of major. But its unfair because you had to suffer once so why shouldn't these kids

What happens when they fall back in debt because no one knows how to spend within their means?

"No one knows"...

That's not how we got here.

06hawkalum wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:Sweeping student debt elimination is bogus. Speaking for myself and others who realized a college education was not feasible, and seizing a chance to quote the Buzzcocks:

What do I get?

A generation of young workers with a ton of newly found disposable income to plow back into the economy.

Your attitude about this matter reminds me of the olds complaining about paying property tax because "I don't have any kids in school."

Everyone benefits from a better educated, less debt-encumbered workforce.

Not really. I don't complain about paying my fair share. I will complain about how it's spent. Even as a veteran I strongly oppose our military budget.

My issue is changing the rules after the game is played. It's not equitable to those who skipped college or a graduate degree because of the accumulating debt.

As a general rule those with the most student debt are also the highest earners (or were career students who I give little sympathy). The highest earners would receive the greatest benefit while also having the greatest capacity to repay. That doesn't seem right to me. And let's not kid ourselves that this money would get plowed into the economy. A great deal of it would be squirreled away with eyes on retirement or individual wealth.

100% things need to change in education and I'm all for making post-secondary education more affordable and free for many. The real solution starts with secondary education or even how we view secondary education.

jerseyhoya wrote:

PhillieMooDo wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:Why not have the government pay off everyone's mortgages, car loans and credit card bills while we're at it

No debt for anybody!

I know you're just being an a-hole here, but I wonder if it would cost as much as the bailouts of the big banks and car companies. Maybe NOT all debt, but what would it cost to wipe away "most" debt?

Like, instead of giving Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $200 billion, why not just pay off the loans that caused the issue? Why not pay off $200 billion in loans? The bank gets the money, anyway, and people could stay in their homes. Suddenly, have reduced stress and more available income to save/invest, etc.

TARP returned $15 million more to the government than it cost, so it would cost a lot more than -$15 billion.



According to this graphic, found on the Internet so almost certainly accurate, Americans have over $13 trillion in personal debt. Which is 3x the entire federal budget. Wiping out most of it would be costly. And deeply unfair to people who have paid off their mortgages or student loans or car or rented rather than buying or whatever else. And terrible public policy. And lots of other things.

The thing is, one of those things is not like the other. I am not saying whether or not I think a total wipeout of all outstanding college debt is or is not a good idea, because I haven’t studied it properly, but it IS an idea worth studying, unlike wiping out any of the other debt on that chart, and that is in itself instructive.

Full grown adults make choices about products that by their nature provide their own collateral. If you can’t afford to make the car payment, you can surrender the car and get a significant chunk of the loan paid off. If you can’t afford to pay the mortgage, you can turn in the keys. These are imperfect solutions, indeed not even fully “solutions” in the traditional sense, but at least they shield the borrower from owing tens and/or hundreds of thousands of dollars in many cases. And in the case of any debt in the chart above EXCEPT for student loan debt, you can have it discharged in a bankruptcy filing, which again is instructive.

Student loan debt is unsecured. This is of course given as the reason why it is has been protected from being discharged in bankruptcy proceedings, which in turn causes the problem that neither can it even be refinanced, which certainly responsible borrowers should be able to do.

It is also generally incurred by people who are not adults in the fully-functioning sense of that term. We also have set up a society that puts tremendous pressure on people to buy the thing these colleges are selling: an education is, potentially, an investment, as any study comparing lifetime earnings of college educated vs. non-college educated will tell you. I could go on, but I will spare everyone.

The bottom line is, like with health insurance, the system is broken at its core. State sponsored institutions of higher education should be, like other public schools, free or close to free. That doesn’t mean that the experience people think of when they think of college should be free - I am not talking about taxpayers funding glorified alcohol fueled summer camps for the other three seasons of the year where some kid graduates with a B.A. in “business” and spends most of his time hanging out in various air conditioned dorms, eating at mall-like food courts, and screwing. You know, Harvard. I am talking about taking CLASSES and earning a degree at a commuter school. This should be free or close to it, if the paper these places grant is the ticket of entry into the middle class, which it largely is.

Anything else is “deeply unfair” to people who weren’t to the manor born.

BatFlipsFTW wrote:

td11 wrote:There is never money for anything except war, subsidies for oil companies, militarizing the police, you know, things that aren't "terrible public policy."

Doing good and kind things for your citizens like forgiving unfair school debt and giving them free healthcare is bad because this graph here says it costs a lot

Also congrats to the 40 year olds of the board who've successfully paid off 20k in debt. Kids these days are coming out w 100k debt regardless of major. But its unfair because you had to suffer once so why shouldn't these kids

What happens when they fall back in debt because no one knows how to spend within their means?

We forgive it again by taxing rich people into oblivion

Education and Healthcare should not be profit drivers. They do not have the same structure as far as demand and supply and simply don't adhere to the same rules as many other markets.

I would also decommodify much of the housing market if I had a magic wand and we can actually do some sound investments as governments that would at least create real options for millions of people in this arena.

Uncle Milty wrote:
My issue is changing the rules after the game is played. It's not equitable to those who skipped college or a graduate degree because of the accumulating debt.

A great deal of it would be squirreled away with eyes on retirement or individual wealth.

100% things need to change in education and I'm all for making post-secondary education more affordable and free for many. The real solution starts with secondary education or even how we view secondary education.

No offense, but that first reason seems about the worst I've ever heard to avoid reform. How about all those women and blacks and jews who never got a chance at a college education because of legal and extra-legal procriptins? Should we never have changed the game so they wouldn't feel left out?

Second point's a little weak too. Money put into the bank gets plowed back into the community as well. It's not sitting there in gold bars.


But the conclusion is certainly a good one. At some point we went too far with the college is for everyone idea, and need to shape practical alternatives. I'm not really for loan forgiveness, but certainly for guaranteeing reasonable loans for legitimate educational purposes (yes, even for those who go to "school for life.") Not saying it's easy, though. If you suppress rates, then no one will make the loans. If the government guarantees low-interest in order to encourage them, then unsafe loans will be made. It would be nice if everyone acted in good faith to accomplish the goal, but it's not the case.

Yeah, well, that just like YOUR opinion, man. And also rather rude!

Uncle Milty wrote:Yeah, well, that just like YOUR opinion, man. And also rather rude!

it's my day for that.

thephan wrote:It is a little funny to think that Kid Rock does not think that Tay-tay could get herself into a movie if she wanted to. That lady has power, and she just might be learning how to use it from some other powerful women.

I would be very surprised if she hasn't been offered a role at some point. She would sell tickets.

She should point out that Child Rock is trying to suck the doorknob off the MAN (It will bother him) in the oval office in order to get the political position he has publicly said he wants. No conjecture. He has said he wants one.