2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Average

Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby MoBettle » Mon Oct 07, 2019 23:12:54

Gotta look at that w-l
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby Shore » Mon Oct 07, 2019 23:26:33

Sorry, he had a 4.78 FIP, allowed more than a hit per inning, 3 walks per 9, a homer every 7 innings, a year after leading the NL in hits allowed. He's a Brave who looks like a Met.

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby JFLNYC » Tue Oct 08, 2019 02:18:29

I agreed with not signing Keuchel but fwiw a 4.78 FIP would have been second best among our starters.

Klentak’s ability to make trades and FA signings (or not) seems pretty good to me. His weakness is a seeming inability to create a scouting and farm system with the ability to spot and develop young players on a consistent and competitive level.
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby phorever » Tue Oct 08, 2019 06:29:20

JFLNYC wrote:
His weakness is a seeming inability to create a scouting and farm system with the ability to spot and develop young players on a consistent and competitive level.


how much of the disappointing progress of the best of our recent set young players to make the majors is due the players themselves being overrated by phillies phans who are comparing our best players to their peers in a farm system that was pretty poor when klentak took over. i feel like it can be argued that kingery and haseley and hoskins and eflin and seranthony and neris have exceeded expections, nola and alfaro mostly expectations them in a good way, while eickhoff and franco and williams and altherr ended up meeting the generally low expectations for them. crawford and velasquez are the most notable flops relative to general expectations.
w.r.t to players who haven''t yet made the majors, the moniak choice still looks pretty bad, medina is now a concern, and the young latin american hitters from the international drafts have almost all been busts so far, ... but ...
sixto was turned into realmuto, bohm has risen far and fast, the reading rotation outside of medina was pretty darn awesome in a hitters park (with some continuing to look good in the afl). it is worth noting that sixto and the reading bunch all seem to be encouraging examples of the successful application of caution in shutting down young hitters with arm issues soon enough to yield relatively quick and successful recoveries. if (yes, very, very big if) the reading guys keep it up, this might be enough to offset the setback caused by the disastrous choice of young as big league pitching coach.
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby MoBettle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 08:20:56

phorever wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:
His weakness is a seeming inability to create a scouting and farm system with the ability to spot and develop young players on a consistent and competitive level.


how much of the disappointing progress of the best of our recent set young players to make the majors is due the players themselves being overrated by phillies phans who are comparing our best players to their peers in a farm system that was pretty poor when klentak took over. i feel like it can be argued that kingery and haseley and hoskins and eflin and seranthony and neris have exceeded expections, nola and alfaro mostly expectations them in a good way, while eickhoff and franco and williams and altherr ended up meeting the generally low expectations for them. crawford and velasquez are the most notable flops relative to general expectations.
w.r.t to players who haven''t yet made the majors, the moniak choice still looks pretty bad, medina is now a concern, and the young latin american hitters from the international drafts have almost all been busts so far, ... but ...
sixto was turned into realmuto, bohm has risen far and fast, the reading rotation outside of medina was pretty darn awesome in a hitters park (with some continuing to look good in the afl). it is worth noting that sixto and the reading bunch all seem to be encouraging examples of the successful application of caution in shutting down young hitters with arm issues soon enough to yield relatively quick and successful recoveries. if (yes, very, very big if) the reading guys keep it up, this might be enough to offset the setback caused by the disastrous choice of young as big league pitching coach.


Klentak didn't draft/sign most of the prospects you listed here.

Guy got a running start on a rebuild (most of the young players you mentioned) with a major market team, has been here 4 years, and the results so far is an underwhelming amount of young talent at the major league level (you can list names, I can list names of Braves and Nationals and so on) and a minor league system that most evaluators rank in the bottom 15. It's not good enough.

I just don't understand what he needs to put together a top system. He got money, picks, a market guys want to play in, for a long time he had no expectations of winning. What is the resource he wasn't given? (Sorry I don't mean to address this fully at you, more speaking into the void here)
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby SixerLed3 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 08:35:55

Across baseball, the Phillies are viewed as a franchise either overthinking it, or practicing a thorough decision-making approach, or totally dysfunctional.

The Phillies, according to two sources, will not bring back longtime head athletic trainer Scott Sheridan and one of his assistants, Chris Mudd. Sheridan has spent the last 13 seasons as the team’s top athletic trainer. The Phillies were beset by bullpen injuries in 2019 and, within the organization, there were disputes about how some of those pitchers were used and how their rehab programs were structured. Over the years, Sheridan developed a strong reputation among players for his meticulous work.

So, now, there is a growing narrative the Phillies can deploy to justify Kapler’s return while still claiming change. John Mallee and Chris Young, along with the trainers, were the victims of an 81-81 season. Club officials have cited injuries as the main reason why the 2019 Phillies fell short.


https://theathletic.com/1275927/2019/10 ... direction/

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby JFLNYC » Tue Oct 08, 2019 08:45:15

Sounds like chaos tbh.
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby Grotewold » Tue Oct 08, 2019 08:56:18

Why is MacPhail here if Middleton can't trust his and/or his GM's judgment on Kapler?

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby Shore » Tue Oct 08, 2019 09:20:56

After the first draft (2016), I think I kind of like what he's done since...

I don't think it's fair to say he got a "running start" on a rebuild. He inherited a poor system, with JP Crawford as the prize, and the young (under 26) talent on the major league team - aside from Nola - sucked, with Maikel Franco, Cody Asche, Odubel Herrera, Cesar Hernandez, and Freddy Galvis, with Nola and Adam Morgan on the moun

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby Shore » Tue Oct 08, 2019 09:24:59

Grotewold wrote:Why is MacPhail here if Middleton can't trust his and/or his GM's judgment on Kapler?


Good question. I don't really get MacPhail's role, honestly.

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby thephan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 09:40:04

Don't let the Phillies become the Redskins of baseball.
yawn

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby MoBettle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 09:41:44

Shore wrote:After the first draft (2016), I think I kind of like what he's done since...

I don't think it's fair to say he got a "running start" on a rebuild. He inherited a poor system, with JP Crawford as the prize, and the young (under 26) talent on the major league team - aside from Nola - sucked, with Maikel Franco, Cody Asche, Odubel Herrera, Cesar Hernandez, and Freddy Galvis, with Nola and Adam Morgan on the moun


Maybe it was poor in retrospect but it was considered a top ~5 system around when he took over. Part of that was the Giles trade that he did, but then again part of the running start was the team having guys like Giles, Hamels and the past generation to trade for prospects that filled up the system. The depth from those trades was the only reason the system was highly regarded, once it went back to us just drafting ourselves it went back to the complete lack of depth that the previous regime had.

Either way, I’m just sort of sick of having to talk myself into the Howards and Bohms of the world. Almost every team has guys like that, and the teams that have good systems seem to have multiple every year. Maybe they’ll both hit but odds are the teams with more depth will hit more.
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby CFP » Tue Oct 08, 2019 09:55:04

thephan wrote:Don't let the Phillies become the Redskins of baseball.


At least they've been in the playoffs twice since 2011.

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby rolex » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:13:30

thephan wrote:Don't let the Phillies become the Redskins of baseball.

I don't get where Middleton is becoming "Meddleton". He saw a team that underperformed expectations at the plate and on the mound after spending some serious cash to not have that happen. He intervened and had both the hitting and pitching coaches fired. If that's meddling, good for that. If the owner of a recently acquired corporation had two sectors of it that were seriously underperforming after investing heavily in them, they'd be remiss if they didn't check into that and probably roll some heads. Middleton is doing the same thing with the Phillies. That's not meddling; its sound management.

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby Wolfgang622 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:14:19

If Middleton were Meddleton Kapler would have been fired by now.
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby Grotewold » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:16:21

rolex wrote:
thephan wrote:Don't let the Phillies become the Redskins of baseball.

I don't get where Middleton is becoming "Meddleton". He saw a team that underperformed expectations at the plate and on the mound after spending some serious cash to not have that happen. He intervened and had both the hitting and pitching coaches fired. If that's meddling, good for that. If the owner of a recently acquired corporation had two sectors of it that were seriously underperforming after investing heavily in them, they'd be remiss if they didn't check into that and probably roll some heads. Middleton is doing the same thing with the Phillies. That's not meddling; its sound management.


But why overstep MacPhail and Klentak if you're keeping them?

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby heyeaglefn » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:19:10

rolex wrote:
thephan wrote:Don't let the Phillies become the Redskins of baseball.

I don't get where Middleton is becoming "Meddleton". He saw a team that underperformed expectations at the plate and on the mound after spending some serious cash to not have that happen. He intervened and had both the hitting and pitching coaches fired. If that's meddling, good for that. If the owner of a recently acquired corporation had two sectors of it that were seriously underperforming after investing heavily in them, they'd be remiss if they didn't check into that and probably roll some heads. Middleton is doing the same thing with the Phillies. That's not meddling; its sound management.

He needs to let guys below him do their jobs, the owner should not be the one to make those decisions.

If a new owner comes in and cans the store assistant manager instead of letting the general manager/store manager make decisions, then they are getting into the weeds too much.

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby 06hawkalum » Tue Oct 08, 2019 18:14:24

If Buck is the alternative, let's stick with Gabe.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yah ... 08189.html
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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby thephan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 18:45:19

Since the Showalter chatter it's picking up someone needs to get Meddleton's eyes on how stinky the O's have been for a very long time, then help him look at his Baltimore centric exec staff.

In light of that, #SaveGabe
yawn

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Re: 2019-20 Phillies Offseason: Striving for Better Than Ave

Postby bleh » Tue Oct 08, 2019 18:54:55

Machado said he wants Showalter in San Diego. save us Manny

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