Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! politics

Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby MoBettle » Thu Aug 13, 2015 23:50:12

TenuredVulture wrote:There's no doubt that social conservatives have lost every battle they've fought, with the exception of abortion, where they can claim some small victories. Now, often, this is because they're mostly pretty nasty and mean spirited. But even when they're reasonable, like when they want to buy cable channels a la cart instead of one big package, they get nothing, but the rest of us get our four letter words on FX with basic cable!

On economic issues, I think it's fair to say we're really in a world of crony capitalism, with Dems and Reps choosing to enrich different cronies (but Wall Street gets paid no matter what). Our labor movement has made a series of strategic errors--abandoning the South for one. But there is no doubt in my mind that for almost all of us, our employers have a lot more leverage over the conditions of our employment than we do.

While I am more optimistic than most about future economic prospects, I do understand that there is a very real possibility that technology and automation pose a very real threat regarding the employment prospects of our children. For almost everyone, the security enjoyed by our parents is a thing of the past.


I mostly agree with this. I would say that Social Conservatives have been winning on guns for the last 15-20 years though.

But I will also say that "Social Liberalism" is a big tent, and a lot of time encompasses people that end up pooling resources together but really don't care about whether the other interests succeed (Except to the extent it helps their own ends). Like I'm sure that there are people in the BLM movement that think abortion should be completely banned, Union Heads that think we should build a 200 foot wall in Arizona etc etc etc.

What I think is interesting is, as these liberal problems get "solved" in the minds of certain people in these groups, seeing whether social liberalism on the whole continues to receive the same level of support.

The clearest place this could probably happen is with gay rights; there are more than a small number of people that would be classic conservatives, but for the fact that they are gay or at least strongly support the gay rights movement. As conservatives move toward accepting gays (or at least accepting that the law accepts gays) do we see the people that previously supported gay rights now support more conservative candidates? Ditto with other groups as they begin to feel that social liberalism has "done enough" for women, minorities, immigration, etc?

I guess my point is that liberalism can have "victories" while the country might still be moving towards conservatism as a whole.
Last edited by MoBettle on Thu Aug 13, 2015 23:54:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby drsmooth » Thu Aug 13, 2015 23:54:42

MoBettle wrote: As conservatives move toward accepting gays (or at least accepting that the law accepts gays) do we see the people that previously supported gay rights now support more conservative candidates?




You were saying...?
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby MoBettle » Fri Aug 14, 2015 00:18:06

drsmooth wrote:
MoBettle wrote: As conservatives move toward accepting gays (or at least accepting that the law accepts gays) do we see the people that previously supported gay rights now support more conservative candidates?




You were saying...?


"Moves towards" Wasn't saying it has completely happened yet, or that the whole GOP will ever become 100% accepting of gays. But as the vitriol against gays by the GOP is reduced (And it has gone down a lot just over the last decade) gay people/those who strongly support the gay rights movement have less and less direct incentives to support other liberal policies, outside of altruism I guess. Which will be enough for some people, but not others.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby Phan In Phlorida » Fri Aug 14, 2015 04:03:23

Image
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby Phan In Phlorida » Fri Aug 14, 2015 04:07:55

Berniemania. Begging Biden to run. Now an Al Gore rumor. The Democrats must really hate Hillary Clinton.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby drsmooth » Fri Aug 14, 2015 07:17:47

MoBettle wrote: as the vitriol against gays by the GOP is reduced (And it has gone down a lot just over the last decade) gay people/those who strongly support the gay rights movement have less and less direct incentives to support other liberal policies, outside of altruism I guess. Which will be enough for some people, but not others.


Hard for me to see how someone who's benefited from statutory support for treating them as an actual person can get behind building a really expensive, big-honking-stupid-ass fence flogged principally by people who are not regularly disposed to treat categories of people who are not in their category as actual persons.

Maybe a soft example but the broader appeal may be to different ways of solving problems in representative government


But maybe I'm assuming you're saying they'll actually support such exclusionary initiatives, rather than merely not actively opposing them, because it's not their fight. I can see that latter thing happening for sure. Then it may become a matter of whether less personal, more abstract issues like wealth inequality and resultant inequities resonate with them.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby The Crimson Cyclone » Fri Aug 14, 2015 07:28:28

until the states implement discrimination laws for gays (there's maybe 13 now?), they'll still be interested in liberal policy making
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby Soren » Fri Aug 14, 2015 07:55:00

td11 wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:There's no doubt that social conservatives have lost every battle they've fought, with the exception of abortion, where they can claim some small victories.


underprivileged women in states where PP and other health services have been shut down under the guise of ending abortion might disagree about the smallness of the victories.


Also voting rights slowly eroding
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby TomatoPie » Fri Aug 14, 2015 07:59:30

drsmooth wrote:Both US political parties are the parties of the owners.


Point of agreement there, yes
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby TomatoPie » Fri Aug 14, 2015 08:05:00

drsmooth wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:On fiscal issues, we're going the wrong way. We continue to shift Americans from working class to dependent class.


Sorry, but n-worda please. Bring data. We won't wait up for you.


This is a layup. You'll want to discredit the source - but I can find 10 others if you like. Government data, if you prefer. But it's a silly exercise - you know the stats.

http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... government

Here's a point where we might readily agree: Unskilled labor once had real value, when we were a manufacturing economy. The value of unskilled labor has plummeted, due to mechanization and due to global labor competition.

Good so far?

Transfer payments are up - WAY UP. Maybe that is a response to the falling value of unskilled labor? More likely it is politicians of all stripes (but especially blue stripes) buying votes.

Regardless, the issue to solve is to how to turn unskilled citizens into productive citizens. Citizens whose labor is worth $15 an hour.
Last edited by TomatoPie on Fri Aug 14, 2015 08:59:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby The Nightman Cometh » Fri Aug 14, 2015 08:38:15

TomatoPie wrote:
drsmooth wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:I see a steady move to the left.


You can only 'see' this if you do not see anything with regard to labor - a worker voice in how work and workplace related issues are addressed and resolved - as being relevant to politics.

We in the US lag far behind Europe - maybe more broadly, western economies - in legislating workplace policy. That used to be because labor unions preferred to drive those issues. Now, with all but public sector unions on life support, basically nobody gives enough of a positive #$!&@, and republican gerrymanderers only care about keeping you off their lawns.

Sure some cheer Lilly Ledbetter etc. That is, as they say in some parts, small beer. Put all your other socially liberal legislation on the scale and the absence of workplace liberalism means we've been lucky to tread political spectrum water.


My dad was AFL-CIO. His union drove his company out of business. He was lucky enough to retire, the young guys all just lost their jobs. You can't protect jobs that don't make economic sense. Not here, not in Europe. You can't enrich Americans by denying economic prosperity to Asia.

I never wanted nor needed a union to protect my job. No competent person should, for the most part. We may "lag Europe" but that just means they are further along on a path that cannot be sustained.

Others that aren't the alpha male you are tend to benefit from collective bargaining.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby Soren » Fri Aug 14, 2015 08:43:19

people who aren't white men tend to benefit as well.
Olivia Meadows, your "emotional poltergeist"

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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby TomatoPie » Fri Aug 14, 2015 09:00:00

Soren wrote:people who aren't white men tend to benefit as well.


That sounds like the soft prejudice of low expectations.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby TomatoPie » Fri Aug 14, 2015 09:02:31

The Nightman Cometh wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:I never wanted nor needed a union to protect my job. No competent person should, for the most part. We may "lag Europe" but that just means they are further along on a path that cannot be sustained.

Others that aren't the alpha male you are tend to benefit from collective bargaining.


There was a time when that was true. I'm all about that Harlan County.

But for the most part of the last 30 years, unions are about protecting the incompetent and mostly about enriching union leaders. Power corrupts, and there's hardly a stinkier fish in America than its unions. Jimmy Hoffa never really died.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby The Nightman Cometh » Fri Aug 14, 2015 09:05:56

That's incorrect.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby Soren » Fri Aug 14, 2015 09:53:02

TomatoPie wrote:
Soren wrote:people who aren't white men tend to benefit as well.


That sounds like the soft prejudice of low expectations.


Expecting everyone to get a fair chance is low expectations huh
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby MoBettle » Fri Aug 14, 2015 09:57:29

drsmooth wrote:
MoBettle wrote: as the vitriol against gays by the GOP is reduced (And it has gone down a lot just over the last decade) gay people/those who strongly support the gay rights movement have less and less direct incentives to support other liberal policies, outside of altruism I guess. Which will be enough for some people, but not others.


Hard for me to see how someone who's benefited from statutory support for treating them as an actual person can get behind building a really expensive, big-honking-stupid-ass fence flogged principally by people who are not regularly disposed to treat categories of people who are not in their category as actual persons.

Maybe a soft example but the broader appeal may be to different ways of solving problems in representative government


But maybe I'm assuming you're saying they'll actually support such exclusionary initiatives, rather than merely not actively opposing them, because it's not their fight. I can see that latter thing happening for sure. Then it may become a matter of whether less personal, more abstract issues like wealth inequality and resultant inequities resonate with them.


Mostly the latter. Because we have a two party system, weakening support for liberalism is in a lot of ways strengthening conservatism by comparison. You obviously don't get to vote for a slate of issues, you vote for a candidate. I've never been able to vote for someone that held my views 100%. You pick and choose the issues that are the most important to you, and accept the differences.

But there are issues that not all Social Liberals agree on. Abortion, Affirmative Action, the degree to which police brutality is a problem, Unions etc.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby drsmooth » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:23:09

TomatoPie wrote: the issue to solve is to how to turn unskilled citizens into productive citizens. Citizens whose labor is worth $15 an hour.


no it's not. This is the kind of delusional "thinking" Very Serious types like David Brooks engage in. It's futile. We are not 'educating up' a new middle class. The economics no longer work. You're like the WWI French generals, digging trenches & fighting the last war.

Ownership - the ultimate "entitlement" - is the operating principle, more now than ever.

So let's revive an idea those avowed Socialists - Dick Nixon & Milton Friedman - kicked around 50 years ago. It's not the idea by any means - it's an idea, more an area to explore, sort of like taking the air out of the truck-stuck-in-the-tunnel's tires to get it unstuck, rather than complicated schemes to cut the top off the truck, scrape rock off the tunnel roof, etc.

despite the reservations of Von Mises' heirs (heirs who should be discredited, and soon) it's a more pragmatic way of looking at opportunities - and a better way than stuff gurgled up by captains of industry like this scheming crony capitalist weasel, whose big idea is "have the gov't give tax incentives to businesses to pay more".

Fuck off, Jack - just pay them more, and the rentiers in the corner offices less - much, much less. You'll be surprised how no one misses their contributions, once they leave in protest that they're not getting their due.
Last edited by drsmooth on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:28:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump problem? Combover here and say it to my face! poli

Unread postby drsmooth » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:24:32

TomatoPie wrote:This is a layup. You'll want to discredit the source - but I can find 10 others if you like. Government data, if you prefer. But it's a silly exercise - you know the stats.

http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... government


hmmm. Get on those 10 other sources (which for some reason you never offer up first, when you know Heritage is literally the shit), pronto
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