I'm not gonna debate you, Jerry! Politics thread.

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Aug 31, 2008 16:49:00

VoxOrion wrote:I'm not minimizing the disaster. I worked very closely with folks who were cleared out from New Orleans and moved to Philly for months after - aside from maybe TV, I'm certain I've had more exposure to actual Katrina victims than any of you. These were people that had to go home to bury members of their family, despite being middle-class folks who maintained employment because they worked for a government agency (and worked 12-16 hour days for months at a time).

I'm talking about the facination with the event as a watershed moment in American politics. I'm talking about the outrageous stories and conspiracies (that I heard straight from horses mouths) about what "really happened" in New Orleans. I'm talking about stories about cannibalism, rape gangs, black ops explosions heard near levees - the entire nine yards. The folks from NO had a more nuianced view, the same individual would spout about the morons who wouldn't leave and are pissing away the money while claiming a friend of a friend heard the explosions.

The mismanagement of the disaster, the dire implications derived from it, and the targeting of blame is something that is a part of the Bush legacy that is much more important to his enemies than to regular Joe. I can't believe a poll of 3000 Americans would reveal Katrina as the "end of the end" for Bush. War, economy, then probably corruption would be third, and that's assuming not catching bin Laden wasn't a separate item from the war.

All kidding aside, you guys are talking about the prospect of a disaster during the RNC with glee - a theme all over the web today from Michael Moore to Howard Dean.


You really can't argue the chronology though. I mean, there were other things too--Harriet Miers and immigration reform hurt him among conservatives. But for regular Americans, Katrina was a shock, and Bush's popularity, already vulnerable, suffered irreparably. It doesn't matter if people on the street don't remember exactly why they stopped liking Bush, the point is they did, and his popularity never recovered.

Now, as to what happened, blowing up levees nonses, of course not. New Orleans was and is in many ways a very dysfunctional, violent, poverty ridden city with a longstanding culture of dependency and little entrepreneurialism--in many ways the worst of the old South, in contrast to Atlanta, Nashville, even Dallas and Houston. Louisiana of course also has a longstanding culture of corruption.

On the other hand, there was and is a sense in Louisiana that Katrina changed Louisiana politics forever. The election of Bobby Jindal probably had a lot to do with Katrina and frustation with the ole boy network that had mismanaged the state for generations.

Finally, there's no glee here. A lot of anxiety and concern, and hopes that the storm falls apart. Because if it's even close to as bad as Katrina, I don't think New Orleans ever recovers.
Be Bold!

TenuredVulture
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
 
Posts: 53243
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 00:16:10
Location: Magnolia, AR

Postby VoxOrion » Sun Aug 31, 2008 17:00:11

I didn't claim any of you did - I put out my opinion that seeing Katrina as an end of the end moment for Bush is a leftwise perspective, because I don't believe it's seen that way by most people. My Vince Foster/Whitewater example was poor - the point I was trying to make was that folks inside the mindshare (no, not a hive mind, I'm just talking about where one gets their news from, where one "hangs out") would assume that Whitewater was very important to people on the "outside" when it wasn't. My point isn't to compare the severity of Katrina to Whitewater, my point is to compare the reaction and provide an example of what I meant.
“There are no cool kids. Just people who have good self-esteem and people who blame those people for their own bad self-esteem. “

VoxOrion
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12963
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 09:15:33
Location: HANLEY POTTER N TEH MAGICALASS LION

Postby VoxOrion » Sun Aug 31, 2008 17:01:12

I'm quite Bidenlike today, you guys should be loving me.
“There are no cool kids. Just people who have good self-esteem and people who blame those people for their own bad self-esteem. “

VoxOrion
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12963
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 09:15:33
Location: HANLEY POTTER N TEH MAGICALASS LION

Postby dajafi » Sun Aug 31, 2008 17:03:17

VoxOrion wrote:I'm quite Bidenlike today, you guys should be loving me.


Well, at least you haven't made any stupid, distracting, and totally counterproductive references to Stalinist governance. That's something.

dajafi
Moderator / BSG MVP
Moderator / BSG MVP
 
Posts: 24567
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 20:03:18
Location: Brooklyn

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Aug 31, 2008 18:16:21

I actually feel a little bad that the Republicans aren't going to get to have their convention. However, I'm not sure McCain's political rally in Mississippi today is really such a good idea. It seems almost tacky.
Be Bold!

TenuredVulture
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
 
Posts: 53243
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 00:16:10
Location: Magnolia, AR

Postby drsmooth » Sun Aug 31, 2008 18:38:48

VoxOrion wrote:I don't know - Katrina was a big-time-real-deal disaster and the coverage by the media and reaction by the talking heads still managed to be outright hysterical - a hysteria that seems to have successfully flung things from "this is serious" to "I can't take this seriously".

It just seems weird to me to see two folks describe the "beginning of the end" for Bush completely ignore the two greatest and IIRC well reported reasons for his descent: the war and the economy.

The "facination" (I don't mean that as morbid or whatever) with the Katrina aftermath seems to be a product of the left - much the same way a righty in the 90's would have told you how important Vince Foster or Whitewater were.


wow there is no possible way to liken the katrina failure and what it said - and says - about bushco to the vince foster melodrama

no fucking possible way

please tell me you're drunk
Yes, but in a double utley you can put your utley on top they other guy's utley, and you're the winner. (Swish)

drsmooth
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 47349
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:24:48
Location: Low station

Postby drsmooth » Sun Aug 31, 2008 18:42:44

VoxOrion wrote:I'm talking about the facination with the event as a watershed moment in American politics. I'm talking about the outrageous stories and conspiracies (that I heard straight from horses mouths) about what "really happened" in New Orleans. I'm talking about stories about cannibalism, rape gangs, black ops explosions heard near levees - the entire nine yards.


all that is bullshit - why would you even bring that up?

geez, your credibility on matters political has sunk to the level of the mets bullpen with me

VoxOrion wrote:All kidding aside, you guys are talking about the prospect of a disaster during the RNC with glee - a theme all over the web today from Michael Moore to Howard Dean.


jesus christ you ARE drunk

Okay!!
Yes, but in a double utley you can put your utley on top they other guy's utley, and you're the winner. (Swish)

drsmooth
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 47349
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:24:48
Location: Low station

Postby VoxOrion » Sun Aug 31, 2008 20:11:58

Coming from the guy who's become the biggest troll in this thread, I'm not really rattled.

XOXOX *SMOOCH*
“There are no cool kids. Just people who have good self-esteem and people who blame those people for their own bad self-esteem. “

VoxOrion
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12963
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 09:15:33
Location: HANLEY POTTER N TEH MAGICALASS LION

Postby dajafi » Sun Aug 31, 2008 20:35:47

VoxOrion wrote:All kidding aside, you guys are talking about the prospect of a disaster during the RNC with glee - a theme all over the web today from Michael Moore to Howard Dean.


Okay, this is pretty sick. Did I miss where "we guys" were doing this? Are you referring to Paul's joke--which I thought was pretty obviously a joke?

For that matter, frankly, I think the Republicans catch a huge break with this in terms of the politics. What were they going to talk about exactly? The great results of the last eight years? How the same set of policies that got us in the mess were now gonna work aces?

All it was going to be, was four days of lionizing McCain and demonizing Obama. Even granting that nobody does it better, I think that would have both gotten old and come across as transparent. Now McCain gets to look like he "gets it"--doubt of which has become the main Obama attack against him--and can project a stage-managed calm in crisis.

It's always disappointing to see you of all people subscribing to that liberals-as-monsters mindset.

dajafi
Moderator / BSG MVP
Moderator / BSG MVP
 
Posts: 24567
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 20:03:18
Location: Brooklyn

Postby mpmcgraw » Sun Aug 31, 2008 21:09:23

i refuse to accept that i am against contraceptions because i am a christian crazy as a valid opinion.

these people should be put on a ship and i really don't care where it goes as long as it leaves america.

mpmcgraw
There's Our Old Friend
There's Our Old Friend
 
Posts: 3344
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 18:12:34
Location: I think I am Einstein, James Bond, and Batman all rolled into one

Postby drsmooth » Sun Aug 31, 2008 21:27:29

VoxOrion wrote:Coming from the guy who's become the biggest troll in this thread, I'm not really rattled.

XOXOX *SMOOCH*


it's the cicadas - they're driving me CRAZY
Yes, but in a double utley you can put your utley on top they other guy's utley, and you're the winner. (Swish)

drsmooth
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 47349
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:24:48
Location: Low station

Postby Laexile » Sun Aug 31, 2008 23:25:32

dajafi wrote:For that matter, frankly, I think the Republicans catch a huge break with this in terms of the politics. What were they going to talk about exactly? The great results of the last eight years? How the same set of policies that got us in the mess were now gonna work aces?

Do you really think that's all Republicans have to talk about? None of that was on the agenda. Yes, yes, I know Democrats are wonderful selfless human beings who want to help everyone and Republicans are all horrible selfish human beings. Not only do they only care about themselves but they enjoy it when those less fortunate live in misery.

What I hoped would happen, and will still happen, is that Republicans would get an opportunity to offer America something, to tell the country what we're bringing. To communicate a message that hasn't been communicated. As of now Republicans haven't given America a reason to vote for them. And they might not get that opportunity. How can that be a good thing?

All it was going to be, was four days of lionizing McCain and demonizing Obama. Even granting that nobody does it better, I think that would have both gotten old and come across as transparent.

The DNC was about lionizing Obama and demonizing McCain. Why don't you feel that got old and came across as transparent. Oh yeah. See my first paragraph.

dajafi wrote:Now McCain gets to look like he "gets it"--doubt of which has become the main Obama attack against him--and can project a stage-managed calm in crisis.

It's always disappointing to see you of all people subscribing to that liberals-as-monsters mindset.

And it's disappointing to see you subscribing to the conservatives as monsters mindset. If John McCain had gone to the RNC Democrats would've attacked him. If he goes to Gustav, Democrats attack him. People are talking about how those horrible Republicans are going to use their time at the RNC to fundraise for hurricane relief. What could be a more transparent attempt to con the American people than that? I'd like to know what the right thing to do would be.

Once again McCain's judgement is wrong. Republicans are monsters. I don't deny we demonize Democrats, use the politics of fear, and jump all over Obama no matter what he does. I don't want the GOP to do that, but we do. But Democrats seem to be in denial that they do the same thing or justify it by saying the GOP is worse.
Laexile
There's Our Old Friend
There's Our Old Friend
 
Posts: 3307
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 13:50:23
Location: LA

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:48:25

Based on what we're learning about Sarah Palin, this is clearly a move to bring the social right wing on board (people who clearly care a lot more about hating homosexuals than qualifications for the job at hand) without alienating soccer moms. It appears more and more we've got a James Dobson in a Barbie Doll's clothing.
Be Bold!

TenuredVulture
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
 
Posts: 53243
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 00:16:10
Location: Magnolia, AR

Postby drsmooth » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:10:02

Laexile wrote:
dajafi wrote:For that matter, frankly, I think the Republicans catch a huge break with this in terms of the politics. What were they going to talk about exactly? The great results of the last eight years? How the same set of policies that got us in the mess were now gonna work aces?

Do you really think that's all Republicans have to talk about?


I'd love to hear them talk a little about these stories:

Police Raids Enrage Activists, Alarm Others From Friday night through Saturday afternoon, officers surrounded houses, broke down doors, handcuffed scores of people and confiscated suspected tools of civil disobedience.

The show of force was led by the Ramsey County Sheriff's Office in collaboration with the FBI, Minneapolis and St. Paul police, the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office and other agencies.


Kind of funny clip of "raid" in progress (I like the info officer, early in the piece, basically updating Barney Fife):

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f0UUsdCx3Qg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f0UUsdCx3Qg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

this guy's probably got an interesting take on the busts

And yea, sure, I know there were curious 'incidents' in Denver, too

But, perhaps most tellingly - there are cicadas at work in MN, too!!!!
Yes, but in a double utley you can put your utley on top they other guy's utley, and you're the winner. (Swish)

drsmooth
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 47349
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:24:48
Location: Low station

Postby jerseyhoya » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:46:36


jerseyhoya
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 97408
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 21:56:17

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:58:52

jerseyhoya wrote:http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13050.html

Palin's daughter is preggers.


again?

abstinence only, by darn.
Be Bold!

TenuredVulture
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
 
Posts: 53243
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 00:16:10
Location: Magnolia, AR

Postby drsmooth » Mon Sep 01, 2008 13:01:20

TenuredVulture wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13050.html

Palin's daughter is preggers.


again?

abstinence only, by darn.


just so long as it isn't Track's

plenty of room for a doublewide on the south lawn
Last edited by drsmooth on Mon Sep 01, 2008 13:08:16, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, but in a double utley you can put your utley on top they other guy's utley, and you're the winner. (Swish)

drsmooth
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 47349
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:24:48
Location: Low station

Postby Bakestar » Mon Sep 01, 2008 13:04:36

As a lefty/Democrat, I find the whole sordid fascination with Gov. Palin and her family's reproductive history/future just unseemly.

From a purely human standpoint, why should the daughter be held accountable for her mother's stated public beliefs? She's a young woman and deserves our support, not our scorn. It's not her fault her mother is a wackjob theocrat.

From a political standpoint, the Dems risk severe backlash (which is on the verge I think) for picking on and demonizing a pregnant teen and her and her family's personal CHOICE vis-a-vis lifestyle/reproduction, which is what women have been fighting for for a long time. The right to CHOOSE, it applies even to REPUBLICAN families!

I mean, WTF?

STOP IT.
Foreskin stupid

Bakestar
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 14709
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 17:57:53
Location: Crane Jackson's Fountain Street Theatre

Postby philliesphhan » Mon Sep 01, 2008 13:08:58

jerseyhoya wrote:http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13050.html

Palin's daughter is preggers.


The Palins have five children: sons Track (19) and Trig (four months) and daughters Bristol (17), Willow (14) and Piper (7).


I think we can agree those are some awful names.
"My hip is fucked up. I'm going to Africa for two weeks."

philliesphhan
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 36348
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 14:37:22
Location: the corner of 1st and 1st

Postby gr » Mon Sep 01, 2008 13:10:45

Bakestar wrote:As a lefty/Democrat, I find the whole sordid fascination with Gov. Palin and her family's reproductive history/future just unseemly.

From a purely human standpoint, why should the daughter be held accountable for her mother's stated public beliefs? She's a young woman and deserves our support, not our scorn. It's not her fault her mother is a wackjob theocrat.

From a political standpoint, the Dems risk severe backlash (which is on the verge I think) for picking on and demonizing a pregnant teen and her and her family's personal CHOICE vis-a-vis lifestyle/reproduction, which is what women have been fighting for for a long time. The right to CHOOSE, it applies even to REPUBLICAN families!

I mean, WTF?

STOP IT.


I agree with the political standpoint here. While the blogosphere can pretty much say whatever they want, the Obama campaign can't. I seriously doubt they'll make an issue of this. In 04, both Kerry and Edwards tried to politicize Cheyney's daughter being gay and we saw how well that went over.
"You practicing for the Hit Parade?"

gr
Space Cadet
Space Cadet
 
Posts: 12914
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 15:15:05
Location: DC

PreviousNext