Yeah, shocking they couldn't make the playoffs on the backs of Mark Lewis and Desi Relaford despite their relative weakness at the first base position

Barry Jive wrote:Yeah, shocking they couldn't make the playoffs on the backs of Mark Lewis and Desi Relaford despite their relative weakness at the first base position

THIS.

The 2010 Phillies could make the playoffs with Neifi Perez at first base, except that they apparently have Neifi Perez at every other position as well.

Barry Jive wrote:Yeah, shocking they couldn't make the playoffs on the backs of Mark Lewis and Desi Relaford despite their relative weakness at the first base position

Yeah but 1B weakness was part of the overall problem for those teams. They didn't get serious until they went out and got Thome. The '64 Phils failure can be attributed to poor 1B production if you want to make that argument too.

Just looking at recent World Series teams, pretty much all of them had thumpers hving good years playing 1B. Konerko; Pujols; Youklis; Howard; Tex; Berkman; Pena; Helton; etc.

In theory, you can go cheap at 1B and spend the money elsewhere. But in practice, it might not work as well.

Selection bias. Good teams tend to have good offenses, good offenses tend to have good first basemen.

Well we're a good team and we have a good 1B. I'm pretty sure no one is crazy or even ambivalent about the extension. It was an unnecessary risk from Amaro. All I ask is that people here stop being f*ggots about it. He's not 37 right now (though one day he will be) and he's not comparable with Adam LaRoche. Saying "I'd rather have X" or "I'd rather have traded him and signed Y" is pointless, because those things were never, ever going to happen. He was always going to stay here through 2012 on pennant contending clubs. Because of Amaro's choice, now he'll be here well beyond that as well

Any claim that Howard's contract completely rules out a Werth deal is unfalsifiable on two counts...the idea that anyone is certain that the Phillies wouldn't want to add another big deal for 2013 on to go with Roy/Utley/Howard, and the idea that the Phillies value Werth the same way that his agent does regardless of the money available to sign him. No one really knows either answer

So do we need the bitter comments 10x a day? Can we at least wait until he actually sucks for that, versus being off to a slightly slow (but really, not all that terrible start)?

I agree as long as I can kill him in game threads when he does something awful

I like when I whine about people whining

Should have just gone with this

Buzhardt wrote:

HillMD wrote:To be honest, if you put a gun to my head and told me I could have Howard or Adam LaRoche for 145 million less dollars, I'd pick LaRoche.

The Phillies used to spend less money and they used to have Adam LaRoche at 1B (Rico, TLee, etc) and October was a time for fishing, golf and watching the post-season on TV.

Besides for the previously mentioned point about how the rest of that team was trash, Travis Lee wasn't anywhere near as good as Adam LaRoche is.

phatj wrote:Selection bias. Good teams tend to have good offenses, good offenses tend to have good first basemen.

Which is my point exactly. (Buzz's too i believe).

In other words: fuck Adam LaRoche and Rico Brogna and Travis Lee. Let's be a good team.

phatj wrote:Selection bias. Good teams tend to have good offenses, good offenses tend to have good first basemen.

Also, most power hitters tend to be moved to first base at some point in their careers anyway.

HillMD wrote:

Buzhardt wrote:

HillMD wrote:To be honest, if you put a gun to my head and told me I could have Howard or Adam LaRoche for 145 million less dollars, I'd pick LaRoche.

The Phillies used to spend less money and they used to have Adam LaRoche at 1B (Rico, TLee, etc) and October was a time for fishing, golf and watching the post-season on TV.

Besides for the previously mentioned point about how the rest of that team was trash, Travis Lee wasn't anywhere near as good as Adam LaRoche is.

Good point. Lee and Brogna were pretty bad compared to LaRoche unless you can somehow show that Lee and Brogna's glove work made them a lot better than they appear. I don't think that you can and who wants a glove man on 1B anyways.

CrashburnAlley wrote:

phatj wrote:Selection bias. Good teams tend to have good offenses, good offenses tend to have good first basemen.

Also, most power hitters tend to be moved to first base at some point in their careers anyway.

Well, DH anyway. Also LF.

smitty wrote:

CrashburnAlley wrote:

phatj wrote:Selection bias. Good teams tend to have good offenses, good offenses tend to have good first basemen.

Also, most power hitters tend to be moved to first base at some point in their careers anyway.

Well, DH anyway. Also LF.

Just going around the Majors...

Rays: Pena always 1B
Yankees: Teixera played 3B in the Minors
Blue Jays: Overbay always 1B
Red Sox: Ortiz always 1B
Orioles: Atkins played 3B in the Minors and with the Rockies

Twins: Morneau always 1B
Tigers: Cabrera played SS and 3B in the Minors, 3B and OF with the Marlins
White Sox: Konerko played C, 1B, and 3B in the Minors
Royals: Butler played 1B and OF in the Minors
Indians: Branyan played 3B in the Minors, 3B and OF in the Majors

Athletics: Barton brought up as a C
Rangers: Smoak always 1B; Davis played OF and 3B in the Minors
Angels: Morales always 1B
Mariners: Kotchman always 1B

Braves: Glaus brought up as 3B
Phillies: Howard always 1B
Marlins: Sanchez brought up as a C, played 1B and 3B in the Minors
Mets: Davis always 1B
Nationals: Dunn played OF exclusively in the Minors; played OF and 1B in the Majors

Reds: Votto always a 1B
Cardinals: Pujols played 3B in Minors, played 3B, OF, and 1B in Majors
Cubs: Lee always a 1B
Brewers: Fielder always a 1B
Pirates: Clement played C in Minors, switched to 1B when traded to PIT
Astros: Berkman played OF in Minors and Majors, moved to 1B in 2005

Padres: Gonzalez always a 1B
Dodgers: Loney always a 1B
Giants: Huff brought up as 3B, played 3B and 1B in the Majors
Rockies: Helton always a 1B
D-Backs: LaRoche always a 1B

By my count, exactly half of current first basemen have always been at that position. Many started as third basemen or corner outfielders.

If you go with Youkilis instead of Papi for Boston, he started as a 3B and has played every regular position except catcher and shortstop...

smitty wrote:Good point. Lee and Brogna were pretty bad compared to LaRoche unless you can somehow show that Lee and Brogna's glove work made them a lot better than they appear. I don't think that you can and who wants a glove man on 1B anyways.

I think I'd rather have Doug Eyechart than a $25 million singles hitter.

Hoffman article on the Howard deal (now that we've seen Pujols and Fielder's). Lots of quotes from Rube

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phi ... =131298094

"He's gotten himself into better shape than he's ever been in. "

Man I remember having a Jeff Owens avatar when this thread dropped

Also,

I think in order to discuss the merits of Howard's contract, it makes sense to think of it as an 8 year deal for 175 million that started in 2010.

Disagree. Rube got the chance after three years to be more cautious. He wasn't. He assumed all the risk.