smitty wrote:

kruker wrote:To McNeal's point above, and it's been said on here hundreds of times, but all those years when we were giving up high draft picks we should have been flexing our financial muscle in the international market.

I keep reading this here and no one ever explains it to any extent at all. It's almost like saying we'll never win with the current ownership or the Phillies don't get it with regards to busting slot in the draft or the Verducci effect or all the other stuff folks say.

Should the Phillies have wasted a few million on that guy who is in jail for killing someone?

The Phillies minor league system is lousy with international players. Some of our top prospects are international guys. We included some international guys in trades for big time major league players.

Anyone have any specifics regarding how we should have flexed our financial muscle internationally and what the results would have been?

I would buy this line of thinking in a second if someone could do more than just write it down every once in a while. Who should the Phillies have signed? Where do the Phillies rank with regards international talent with regards to who they have signed? What teams have flexed their financial muscle in the international market? How successful has this strategy been.

Some teams have spent a lot of money on 16 year old kids. How has this worked out? Anyone know?

smitty wrote:

kruker wrote:To McNeal's point above, and it's been said on here hundreds of times, but all those years when we were giving up high draft picks we should have been flexing our financial muscle in the international market.

I keep reading this here and no one ever explains it to any extent at all. It's almost like saying we'll never win with the current ownership or the Phillies don't get it with regards to busting slot in the draft or the Verducci effect or all the other stuff folks say.

Should the Phillies have wasted a few million on that guy who is in jail for killing someone?

The Phillies minor league system is lousy with international players. Some of our top prospects are international guys. We included some international guys in trades for big time major league players.

Anyone have any specifics regarding how we should have flexed our financial muscle internationally and what the results would have been?

I would buy this line of thinking in a second if someone could do more than just write it down every once in a while. Who should the Phillies have signed? Where do the Phillies rank with regards international talent with regards to who they have signed? What teams have flexed their financial muscle in the international market? How successful has this strategy been.

Some teams have spent a lot of money on 16 year old kids. How has this worked out? Anyone know?

NL East:
Mets-Reyes, Alfonzo
Braves-Javy Lopez,Martin Prado,Andruw Jones,Furcal,Odalis Perez
Marlins-Luis Castillo,Miguel Cabrera,Alex Gonzalez,Livan, Renteria
Expos/Nationals-Vlad,Big Cat,Urbina

AL East:
Red Sox: Hanley
Yankees: Cano, Soriano, Mariano,Bernie Williams,Cristian Guzman
Orioles:Armando Benitez,
Rays: not going to give them credit for any of their guys. All mandatory picks.
Blue Jays:Carlos Delgado,Tony Fernandez,Cesar Izturis

NL Central:
Pirates: Aramis Ramirez, Loaiza
Cardinals: Nothing
Astros: Carlos Guillen, Johan---can't believe Hidalgo didn't make the ASG in his 44 hr season
Cubs:Big Z
Reds:Nothing
Brewers:Nothing

AL Central:
Detroit:Francisco Cordero
Cleveland:Carmona, V-Mart,Bartolo
Chicago:Magglio, Carlos Lee
Twins: Nothing
KC:Nothing

NL West:
Giants-Liriano, Sandoval
Dodgers-Pedro,Soria,Beltre,Offerman, Mondesi
Padres-Robby Alomar, quite a few more that I saw on other teams and now can't remember
D'Backs-Miguel Montero

AL West:
Seattle-Big Papi, Felix--believe I saw one or two more on other teams
Oakland-Miggy, Ramon Hernandez
Angels-Ervin Santana, K-Rod
Rangers-Sosa, Juan Gon',Pudge


7 teams (including the Phillies) with 0.

kruker wrote:Something ain't quite right.

smitty wrote:Can you give a few examples of teams that have spent a lot of money on international prospects and therefore have benefitted in a big way? Or are you just saying spending more money must result in success because everyone says so?

Eem wrote:

kruker wrote:Something ain't quite right.

kruker wrote:

smitty wrote:

kruker wrote:To McNeal's point above, and it's been said on here hundreds of times, but all those years when we were giving up high draft picks we should have been flexing our financial muscle in the international market.

I keep reading this here and no one ever explains it to any extent at all. It's almost like saying we'll never win with the current ownership or the Phillies don't get it with regards to busting slot in the draft or the Verducci effect or all the other stuff folks say.

Should the Phillies have wasted a few million on that guy who is in jail for killing someone?

The Phillies minor league system is lousy with international players. Some of our top prospects are international guys. We included some international guys in trades for big time major league players.

Anyone have any specifics regarding how we should have flexed our financial muscle internationally and what the results would have been?

I would buy this line of thinking in a second if someone could do more than just write it down every once in a while. Who should the Phillies have signed? Where do the Phillies rank with regards international talent with regards to who they have signed? What teams have flexed their financial muscle in the international market? How successful has this strategy been.

Some teams have spent a lot of money on 16 year old kids. How has this worked out? Anyone know?

I'll see if I can find my post from like 3 years ago, but name the last all-star player we produced from outside the United States. Our track record isn't good. Signing players is one thing, but we could have also went and built better international academies, increased our international scouting budget, hiring better scouts, etc. I'm not going to play the ex post facto game and say Chapman/Puig/Sano/whatever. The idea is that we've got cash and we haven't produced any real impact players. The cash should make it easier. Last I checked, they were still leasing their complex in the Dominican when teams like Seattle are building large new complexes.

wwry wrote:i figure once cliff lee is finally off the team the latin market will be wide open for us

This list is current as of January 15, 2013 [NOTE: THIS IS FROM JOHN SICKLES, TOP 20 RANGERS PROSPECTS AND GENERALLY CONSIDERED ONE OF THE TOP SYSTEMS IN TERMS OF TALENT - I'VE BOLDED THE INTERNATIONAL SIGNINGS. NOTE ALSO THAT THIS DOESN'T INCLUDE YU DARVISH.]

1) Jurickson Profar, SS, Grade A: Best position prospect in baseball, with outstanding mix of on-base ability, moderate power, speed, excellent defense, superior makeup, and youth.


2) Mike Olt, 3B, Grade A-: Borderline B+. His issues with strikeouts have him right on the A-/B+ edge for me. But the power and defense stand out and will make him valuable even if he doesn't hit for average.

3) Leonys Martin, OF, Grade B: Borderline B+. I might kick him up to B+ depending on where he needs to slot on the Top 50 list. I think the Rangers are right that he will show more power in time and he should hit for average while providing strong defense.

4) Cody Buckel RHP, Grade B: He might not rank as highly on other lists, but the more I study him, the fewer reasons I find NOT to rank him this high. Strike-thrower with excellent makeup, best friends with Trevor Bauer, handled the Texas League just fine at age 20 which is not easy.

5) Justin Grimm, RHP, Grade B: Upside is higher than Buckel's, but he's also four years older and not as polished with his secondary pitches. Can develop into a number three starter with greater consistency to go with 90-94 heat.

6) Luke Jackson, RHP, Grade B: Mid-90s heat but still working on curveball and changeup consistency, performed OK in A-ball but has to improve his command. Could develop into a number two or strong number three starter

7) Martin Perez, LHP, Grade B: I find him very difficult to evaluate. The massive drop in his strikeout rate is quite worrisome. I've seen him on days when he looks like Johan Santana (93-95, killer changeup, very good curveball and slider), and I've seen him on days where it looks like he should be released (87-89, flat breaking balls, dead fish changeups right down the middle). Youth and nice delivery help sustain his status, but I really don' t know what to expect.

8) Rougned Odor, 2B, Grade B: Held his own in the South Atlantic League at age 18. Power/speed mix, strikes me as a guy who is underrated for some reason, perhaps because there are so many infielders in the system

9) Luis Sardinas, SS, Grade B-: Borderline B: Great double play combo with Odor heading for High-A in 2013. Very fast, good defensive tools, hit .291 in Low-A and stole 32 bases, but has less power than Odor and is almost a year older.

10) Jorge Alfaro, C, Grade B-: Grade A tools, Grade C- current skills. Great arm but threw out just 15% of runners. Lots of raw power, but poor contact and plate discipline (16/84 BB/K in 272 at-bats). Turns 20 in June so he is young enough to figure things out, but a perfect example of the high risk/high reward player who could become a star or a Double-A washout.

11) Joey Gallo, 3B, Grade B-: More power than Con Edison. I don't know who the power company in Dallas is, so please don't accuse me of East Coast bias. I could have said "Westar" which is the company where I live, but how many people would get that? Anyway, Gallo has 80-level power but we'll have to see how his big swing and K-issues work out at higher levels. Seems doubtful as a third baseman to me.

12) Nomar Mazara, OF, Grade B-: Bonus baby held his own in AZL at age 17. Also has strikeout issues. Star potential if he can refine it, could move 10 spots up on this list with a strong '13 showing.

13) Ronald Guzman, 1B, Grade B-: Another bonus baby, also held his own in AZL. A tick behind Mazara on this chart since he has less defensive value, hasn't fully tapped his power yet, and is six months older. Like Mazara, he could vault forward in '13.

14) Wilmer Font, RHP, Grade B-: Hard thrower made good recovery from Tommy John surgery. I've always liked him, so here he is again. Probably more reliever than starter though, at least in Texas.

15) Nick Williams, OF, Grade C+: Borderline B-: Another guy with tremendous tools, speed/power potential, but some strike zone issues. Cautious rating until we see more.

16) Lewis Brinson, OF, Grade C+: Another toolsy outfielder with loads of potential but questions about his hitting. And like the others, he could rank much higher next year if he puts his game together.

17) C.J. Edwards, RHP, Grade C+: Very high upside arm came out of nowhere to dominate short-season ball, thanks to mechanical refinement and sudden step forward with secondary pitches. Not bad for a previously obscure 48th round pick.

18) Neil Ramirez, RHP, Grade C+: Tough to get a handle on after wildly erratic season, failed in Triple-A and was spotty after going down to Double-A though sometimes effective. I have been very high on him in the past but he might do better with a change of scenery. Trade bait?

19) Hanser Alberto, SS, Grade C+: Another product of Texas emphasis on up-the-middle players, would get more attention in another system. Fast, has some pop, good glove. Hit .299/.327/.410 with 24 steals between two levels of A-ball at age 19.

20) Nick Martinez, RHP, Grade C+: Athletic former shortstop, nice sleeper prospect pointed out to me by Rangers expert Jamey Newberg. Easy to overlook due to 4.83 ERA in Low-A, but component ratios were much better, he's got a live arm, a nice delivery, and secondary stuff is improving.

JFLNYC wrote:Nonsense. Rube just doesn't make mistakes. He doesn't. He took a championship core and has made the team better and better at every turn. All this planning for the future, international signings, signing impact hitters is for wusses. As long as we keep signing excellent starters we're going to continue our championship ways.

Bill McNeal wrote:

Barry Jive wrote:he was really good 2009-2011, regardless of what that set the team up for the past two years

How many of us said or thought "flags fly forever"? I mean, I feel like when this run was going everyone was on board with it. Damn tomorrow for the chance to win today, and we all knew that during that span we were going to have to pay the piper. That's not to completely excuse what's happened the past two years, but we all saw the writing on the wall, we knew all these guys were signed into their mid30's and were likely going to decline. I know I hoped there would be some youth coming up and replenishing the core as it aged, and a more graceful decline for guys like utley, but that hasn't happened. Is it due to shitty drafting/scouting, regression to the mean after having a run if drafts that produced utley, Howard, hamels, ptb, and jimmy or something else? Who knows, I certainly don't, but I'm glad that the core was kept together as long as they were. I'm not sure what the alternatives where, but no team, with a max payroll, was blowing itself up after the kind of seasons the phills had in 2010 or 2011 and I think that is what it would have taken to avoid the shit show we have now. We can argue until the Internet shuts down about signing willingham instead of pap, or not signing the jroll extensions, but honestly, none of that really matters, that's just rearranging the deck chairs, you know. If we were truly going to reload, it would have involved moving on from Victorino, Rollins, Werth or someone of that caliber while they were signed for future years for top end prospects in 2010 and risking the run that you we were on. Personally, I wouldn't do that, in 2010 and 2011 the Phillies were the best team in baseball, we didn't win the WS either year, but I don't think there's anything that would have changed that, that's baseball and when you have the best team, you've gotta go for it. You might not get the chance again for another 10 or 20 years. It sucks that we suck now, but I'll take it after the run we had.

smitty wrote:Good work! Thanks.

With Olt and Grimm gone, these guys move up as well.

Texas is really well run in a lot of ways.

I have read that this Alfaro cat might be real awesome and Sardinas has really good tools at SS.

It will be interesting to see where the gurus rate the Phillie internationals next year.

Barry Jive wrote:sorry Bill, looks like it was you and me

Bill McNeal wrote:

Barry Jive wrote:he was really good 2009-2011, regardless of what that set the team up for the past two years

How many of us said or thought "flags fly forever"? I mean, I feel like when this run was going everyone was on board with it. Damn tomorrow for the chance to win today, and we all knew that during that span we were going to have to pay the piper. That's not to completely excuse what's happened the past two years, but we all saw the writing on the wall, we knew all these guys were signed into their mid30's and were likely going to decline. I know I hoped there would be some youth coming up and replenishing the core as it aged, and a more graceful decline for guys like utley, but that hasn't happened. Is it due to shitty drafting/scouting, regression to the mean after having a run if drafts that produced utley, Howard, hamels, ptb, and jimmy or something else? Who knows, I certainly don't, but I'm glad that the core was kept together as long as they were. I'm not sure what the alternatives where, but no team, with a max payroll, was blowing itself up after the kind of seasons the phills had in 2010 or 2011 and I think that is what it would have taken to avoid the shit show we have now. We can argue until the Internet shuts down about signing willingham instead of pap, or not signing the jroll extensions, but honestly, none of that really matters, that's just rearranging the deck chairs, you know. If we were truly going to reload, it would have involved moving on from Victorino, Rollins, Werth or someone of that caliber while they were signed for future years for top end prospects in 2010 and risking the run that you we were on. Personally, I wouldn't do that, in 2010 and 2011 the Phillies were the best team in baseball, we didn't win the WS either year, but I don't think there's anything that would have changed that, that's baseball and when you have the best team, you've gotta go for it. You might not get the chance again for another 10 or 20 years. It sucks that we suck now, but I'll take it after the run we had.