slugsrbad wrote:

CalvinBall wrote:idk the incident that politico reported yesterday the woman said they posed for a photo together he put his hand on her waist (where lots of people put their hands when posing for photos) and squeezed some.

i want to believe victims but doesnt that kind of stuff muddy the waters?

Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue. If the touching/squeezing was unwelcomed, it was unwarranted. This is a spectrum issue, and that incident alone is not enough to call for a beheading, but there is a critical mass to all of this where enough is enough no matter how harmless (by comparison) it is individually.

yeah. but i guess the question is why would these women lie? i dont buy that as a defense.

seems to me just as plausible that, for example, the woman in the atlantic/politico story was like oh yeah i met franken once let me stretch the truth a bit for my 15 minutes of fame.

women can lie and be morally grey too.

So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

slugsrbad wrote:

curveball wrote:

thephan wrote:

VA cuts program for homeless vets after touting Trump's commitment

Where we can go a little crazy about lionizing the military, this is a area that needs more, if not the most focus. #sad

"Elisha Harig-Blaine, an activist who leads the nonprofit National League of Cities, described this decision as “unconscionable.” Many of the veterans who depend on the program’s vouchers, she said, will “most likely” die on the streets."

Instant Karma to those who voted for this administration.

Add it to the government funding demands Chuck and Nancy.

This is a pure Republican hit job. No one else to blame. This is a calculated Republican war on the poor of this country. Soon we'll see the Republicans opening "concentration camps for the homeless". Adolf would love this.

slugsrbad wrote:
Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue. If the touching/squeezing was unwelcomed, it was unwarranted. This is a spectrum issue, and that incident alone is not enough to call for a beheading, but there is a critical mass to all of this where enough is enough no matter how harmless (by comparison) it is individually.

Based on that video out of PA yesterday I think there are some men who have pretty clear limits.

The GOP is rubbing their hands with glee over the Franken resignation. The Dems now have to defend yet another seat in 2018. Was it worth it in order to maintain the moral high ground? Face it, we just got played by Roger Stone.

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

There is a photo of him groping a sleeping woman while on the USO Tour. This was the first allegation and the most damning. As far as I can recall there is no such evidence against the President and Moore. There is sure as hell enough allegation and other evidence (Access Hollywood, Yearbook signatures) to believe a critical mass has been reached and resignation/stepping aside is warranted. Just because they do not means we as Democrats should follow suit.

There have been now I believe 8 accusations against Senator Franken. Enough is eventually enough. In the 90s it took three years of allegations and investigation and threats of expulsion before Bob Packwood resigned. I think it's fair to say that three weeks may have been too soon and three years too long, but I still think resignation was the right move.

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

I wondered, with the bit I heard, if he plays out the string, answers his accusers, and then runs if cleared. He took responsibility for some, questioned the facts around others, and seemed to commit to transparency. Since he will be out of the senate, there might not be a forum for the transarency.

thephan wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

I wondered, with the bit I heard, if he plays out the string, answers his accusers, and then runs if cleared. He took responsibility for some, questioned the facts around others, and seemed to commit to transparency. Since he will be out of the senate, there might not be a forum for the transarency.

He said he was resigning in the coming weeks. I wonder if he'd still go before an Ethics Committee, or if there's not enough time/resources to do that w/ so many huge fights and a winter recess coming up.

I know nothing about the Ethics Committee, but everything seems lethargic down on the Hill.

slugsrbad wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

There is a photo of him groping a sleeping woman while on the USO Tour. This was the first allegation and the most damning. As far as I can recall there is no such evidence against the President and Moore. There is sure as hell enough allegation and other evidence (Access Hollywood, Yearbook signatures) to believe a critical mass has been reached and resignation/stepping aside is warranted. Just because they do not means we as Democrats should follow suit.

There have been now I believe 8 accusations against Senator Franken. Enough is eventually enough. In the 90s it took three years of allegations and investigation and threats of expulsion before Bob Packwood resigned. I think it's fair to say that three weeks may have been too soon and three years too long, but I still think resignation was the right move.

That picture was way less damning than the Access Hollywood tape. His hands aren’t even clearly touching anything and she’s wearing a flak jacket. Taken alone, it wouldn’t mean much, but her account of her time with him made it pretty bad.

Trump openly bragged about (admitted/confessed to) his sexual assault. “Grab them by the pussy” “I just start kissing them” “moved on her like a bitch” “when you’re a star they let you do it”

Any one of those lines should be a political death sentence taken alone, unlike the picture.

slugsrbad wrote:

CalvinBall wrote:idk the incident that politico reported yesterday the woman said they posed for a photo together he put his hand on her waist (where lots of people put their hands when posing for photos) and squeezed some.

i want to believe victims but doesnt that kind of stuff muddy the waters?

Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue. If the touching/squeezing was unwelcomed, it was unwarranted. This is a spectrum issue, and that incident alone is not enough to call for a beheading, but there is a critical mass to all of this where enough is enough no matter how harmless (by comparison) it is individually.

my wife didn't like the story and thinks it's a creepy thing for guys to go around squeezing women

did he squeeze guys while taking photos? grab their butts? try to kiss them on the lips?

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

that's such a disingenuous way to put it and beneath you, jfl

Yes, we're better for having him leave the Senate. I really don't care if he held my political values...apparently he didn't actually live them out in practice.

there is no 'due process' in the Senate. This isn't a machinist on the job.

slugsrbad wrote:Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue.

Respectfully, you've been speaking with absolute authority on it

And I don't think you need to be a woman to ask the question Calvin posed. What are the moral criteria for the Senate exactly?

slugsrbad wrote:

thephan wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

I wondered, with the bit I heard, if he plays out the string, answers his accusers, and then runs if cleared. He took responsibility for some, questioned the facts around others, and seemed to commit to transparency. Since he will be out of the senate, there might not be a forum for the transarency.

He said he was resigning in the coming weeks. I wonder if he'd still go before an Ethics Committee, or if there's not enough time/resources to do that w/ so many huge fights and a winter recess coming up.

Undoubtedly he's sticking around so that the interim replacement can get coordinated and be ready to go on the first day of session. Losing a critical vote right now is far worse than anything Franken allegedly did to these women.

CalvinBall wrote:

slugsrbad wrote:

CalvinBall wrote:idk the incident that politico reported yesterday the woman said they posed for a photo together he put his hand on her waist (where lots of people put their hands when posing for photos) and squeezed some.

i want to believe victims but doesnt that kind of stuff muddy the waters?

Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue. If the touching/squeezing was unwelcomed, it was unwarranted. This is a spectrum issue, and that incident alone is not enough to call for a beheading, but there is a critical mass to all of this where enough is enough no matter how harmless (by comparison) it is individually.

yeah. but i guess the question is why would these women lie? i dont buy that as a defense.

seems to me just as plausible that, for example, the woman in the atlantic/politico story was like oh yeah i met franken once let me stretch the truth a bit for my 15 minutes of fame.

women can lie and be morally grey too.

Dupuy is a pretty credible liberal journalist long before she told this story; really has no reason to lie.

Grotewold wrote:

slugsrbad wrote:Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue.

Respectfully, you've been speaking with absolute authority on it

I have not. I have been giving my opinion and arguing with people's whose opinions I disagree with, like yours. I think I'm right, just like you (probably) think you're right. That's what opinions are, and I'm not going to prevent you or anyone else from sharing it.

Grotewold wrote:

slugsrbad wrote:Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue.

Respectfully, you've been speaking with absolute authority on it

And I don't think you need to be a woman to ask the question Calvin posed. What are the moral criteria for the Senate exactly?

None, I guess. we may have a pedophile in there. We've had racists, philanderers, and criminals in there for years and years.

That doesn't mean we should just let that continue, and I say that as someone that wants our society and my party to be better. We take each person and check it out. Franken's had about 7 or 8 women complain about his conduct. That gets to be a little ridiculous to disbelieve. We don't have to run someone out for crossing on red, but a little decorum is nice.

Gimpy wrote:

slugsrbad wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:So are all of us progressives now happy? Is the world a better place for Franken resigning? The Senate? Now that we’ve set an example, are Trump and Moore sure to follow? Oh, that’s right, they’ve denied, denied, denied multiple more serious allegations so they can carry on because, voters which, of course Minnesota doesn’t have. So much for believing women.

I suppose we should be happy we got a scalp because Franken had the decency to admit some inappropriate behavior, plus the bonus of being a Jew. Yet somehow another great American virtue — due process — ended up getting the shaft here. We couldn’t even wait for a Senate censure before hounding him out of office.

You can say he did the right thing, set an example, etc. etc. Considering all the circumstances I think it’s a farce and downright stupid. Our Democratic officials and friends couldn’t get a Republican so we settled on a Democrat to make us feel all righteous.

There is a photo of him groping a sleeping woman while on the USO Tour. This was the first allegation and the most damning. As far as I can recall there is no such evidence against the President and Moore. There is sure as hell enough allegation and other evidence (Access Hollywood, Yearbook signatures) to believe a critical mass has been reached and resignation/stepping aside is warranted. Just because they do not means we as Democrats should follow suit.

There have been now I believe 8 accusations against Senator Franken. Enough is eventually enough. In the 90s it took three years of allegations and investigation and threats of expulsion before Bob Packwood resigned. I think it's fair to say that three weeks may have been too soon and three years too long, but I still think resignation was the right move.

That picture was way less damning than the Access Hollywood tape. His hands aren’t even clearly touching anything and she’s wearing a flak jacket. Taken alone, it wouldn’t mean much, but her account of her time with him made it pretty bad.

Trump openly bragged about (admitted/confessed to) his sexual assault. “Grab them by the sissy” “I just start kissing them” “moved on her like a bitch” “when you’re a star they let you do it”

Any one of those lines should be a political death sentence taken alone, unlike the picture.

Trump should've quit. He should resign. He's also one of the worst persons ever birthed and has no moral code or sense of impropriety or humility. I'm not bothering with trying to get that fool out of office until 2020.

Gimpy wrote:That picture was way less damning than the Access Hollywood tape. His hands aren’t even clearly touching anything and she’s wearing a flak jacket. Taken alone, it wouldn’t mean much, but her account of her time with him made it pretty bad.

Trump openly bragged about (admitted/confessed to) his sexual assault. “Grab them by the pussy” “I just start kissing them” “moved on her like a bitch” “when you’re a star they let you do it”

Any one of those lines should be a political death sentence taken alone, unlike the picture.

I agree and disagree. If true, any one of the things Trump has bragged about is worse than the worst interpretation of the photo. The problem is, that it is easy to explain Trump's words as braggadocio and his history supports that he is a lying asshole who wants people to think he's something he is not (a player, a genius, presidential). The GOP failed as a party by not forcing him to step down then, and they're failing now by not holding him (and Moore, and Farenthold, and whomever is next in line) to task.

pacino wrote:

slugsrbad wrote:

CalvinBall wrote:idk the incident that politico reported yesterday the woman said they posed for a photo together he put his hand on her waist (where lots of people put their hands when posing for photos) and squeezed some.

i want to believe victims but doesnt that kind of stuff muddy the waters?

Probably, but we're a board full of men only, so it's hard to speak with authority on the issue. If the touching/squeezing was unwelcomed, it was unwarranted. This is a spectrum issue, and that incident alone is not enough to call for a beheading, but there is a critical mass to all of this where enough is enough no matter how harmless (by comparison) it is individually.

my wife didn't like the story and thinks it's a creepy thing for guys to go around squeezing women

did he squeeze guys while taking photos? grab their butts? try to kiss them on the lips?

they were taking a photo in a crowded room. seems akin to me when you shake someones hand they grab your bicep or forearm. or maybe he was trying to get posed properly for the photo. but to add that to the he is a predator list seems too much for me.

butts thing seems questionable too. maybe his hand accidentally brushed there. i know i have accidentally done that while taking photos or something and i take a fraction of the percentage of photos that franken has to be in.