Halladay VI: Smug-Off For the Ages Sponsored by lightsout54

by **JFLNYC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:34:30

BTW, I would think they'd put Duchscherer in The Pen.

by **kenrosenthal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:35:54

JFLNYC wrote:
kenrosenthal wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:With 2 IP (minor leagues) this year? Before the deadline? FA at EOY? Beane would be thrilled to get Donald for that.

And FWIW, I love Duchscherer (when he's healthy of course).

donald to me is not an everyday player in mlb, i gladly make this trade. for how smart beane is, i cant believe he'd only want donald for this guy.

and yes i love duchscherer and he will be healthy in a month. and what if he stays. this guys pitched just a notch below halladay last year. to me, this is a no-brainer for the phils. i just dont understand why beane would do this.

Duchscherer does nothing for them this year (they're in last place). Beane probably won't offer him arbitration (he made $3,9MM this year), so Duchscherer has absolutely no value to Beane. Donald is a serviceable MLB player, cheap and maybe develops into a Mark De-Rosa-like player.

true, i understand you. but what if duke is effective for the phils? bring him back and put him in the rotation next year. he will have been here for the end of this year, will get to know the guys, will win a WFC, and will want to come back.

by **The Savior** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:36:30

kenrosenthal wrote:
Werthless wrote:
kenrosenthal wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:With 2 IP (minor leagues) this year? Before the deadline? FA at EOY? Beane would be thrilled to get Donald for that.

And FWIW, I love Duchscherer (when he's healthy of course).

donald to me is not an everyday played in mlb, i gladly make this trade. for how smart beane is, i cant believe he'd only want donald for this guy.

and yes i love duchscherer and he will be healthy in a month. and what if he stays. this guys pitched just a notch below halladay last year. to me, this is a no-brainer for the phils. i just dont understand why beane would do this.
There are only 2 months of the season left. What on earth do you think 1 month of an injured pitcher, who has not thrown all year, will bring in a trade? Pedro was signed for 1million plus a few incentives, we didnt have to give up prospects, and no one else was on him. That should show you how injured pitchers are treated by GMs... very carefully.

a guy out of the pen who can come in a pitch a scorelss inning, and depending on how he does, you can bring him back and put him in the rotation. why not take a flyer on him. that is why the phils have been so successful over the past two years: werth, dobbs, durbin, romero, eyre, and park. why not? your giving up a guy that has no future in philly and seems not be an attractive piece to toronto.

Because you can take a flyer on him in the off-season without having to give up a prospect or taking on any liability/risk over the next 2-3 months while he attempts to prove that his arm is healthy?

by **JFLNYC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:36:55

They've gotta be concerned about Lidge. Do this deal now!

by **kenrosenthal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:37:46

The Savior wrote:Because you can take a flyer on him in the off-season without having to give up a prospect and taking on any liability/risk over the next 2-3 months while he attempts to prove that his arm is healthy?

another valid point. but if he is effective here and likes playing here (likes the team, manager, organization), he will come back if the phils want him back.

by **JFLNYC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:39:26

I think Lidge's season is one wrong twist from being over. If Madson has to close, Duchscherer could be a godsend.

by **The Savior** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:40:08

kenrosenthal wrote:
The Savior wrote:Because you can take a flyer on him in the off-season without having to give up a prospect and taking on any liability/risk over the next 2-3 months while he attempts to prove that his arm is healthy?

another valid point. but if he is effective here and likes playing here (likes the team, manager, organization), he will come back if the phils want him back.

But if he proves he's healthy, he'll likely price himself out of being able to comeback. Duchscherer isn't getting any younger. And at this point, next off-season is probably the last opportunity he'll get to cash in financially. I'm sure his goal at this point is to prove he's healthy so he can get a 3-year deal in November.

by **kenrosenthal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:42:46

The Savior wrote:But if he proves he's healthy, he'll likely price himself out of being able to comeback. Duchscherer isn't getting any younger. And at this point, next off-season is probably the last opportunity he'll get to cash in financially. I'm sure his goal at this point is to prove he's healthy so he can get a 3-year deal in November.

another great point, but there is a better chance he returns here if he spends the next two months (hopefully three) than if he wasnt here and this guy i think would be a great piece for our rotation (next year, if healthy).

basically: i think we should do this tonight.

by **JFLNYC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:43:58

The Savior wrote:
kenrosenthal wrote:
The Savior wrote:Because you can take a flyer on him in the off-season without having to give up a prospect and taking on any liability/risk over the next 2-3 months while he attempts to prove that his arm is healthy?

another valid point. but if he is effective here and likes playing here (likes the team, manager, organization), he will come back if the phils want him back.

But if he proves he's healthy, he'll likely price himself out of being able to comeback. Duchscherer isn't getting any younger. And at this point, next off-season is probably the last opportunity he'll get to cash in financially. I'm sure his goal at this point is to prove he's healthy so he can get a 3-year deal in November.

Having a guy like a healthy Duchscherer in your pen could be a key to another WS. If Donald plays for 15 years he's never going to be that kind of difference-maker. If Duchscherer walks because he does great for the Phils, I'll wish him well.

by **The Savior** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:45:18

kenrosenthal wrote:
The Savior wrote:But if he proves he's healthy, he'll likely price himself out of being able to comeback. Duchscherer isn't getting any younger. And at this point, next off-season is probably the last opportunity he'll get to cash in financially. I'm sure his goal at this point is to prove he's healthy so he can get a 3-year deal in November.

another great point, but there is a better chance he returns here if he spends the next two months (hopefully three) than if he wasnt here and this guy i think would be a great piece for our rotation (next year, if healthy).

basically: i think we should do this tonight.

I'd do it too if he had about 4-6 more rehab starts under his belt. But he's thrown 2 innings of rehab work after a pretty serious injury and surgical procedure.

by **kenrosenthal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:45:22

JFLNYC wrote:Having a guy like a healthy Duchscherer in your pen could be a key to another WS. If Donald plays for 15 years he's never going to be that kind of difference-maker. If Duchscherer walks because he does great for the Phils, I'll wish him well.

my thoughts exactly.

by **JFLNYC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:52:16

kenrosenthal wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:Having a guy like a healthy Duchscherer in your pen could be a key to another WS. If Donald plays for 15 years he's never going to be that kind of difference-maker. If Duchscherer walks because he does great for the Phils, I'll wish him well.

my thoughts exactly.

Yeah. I mean, they could have waited and signed Matt Stairs this off-season, too, rather than giving up Fabio for him. With a team like the Phils, you're working on the margins to get that little bit extra, just like a Matt Stairs. Fringy prospects like Castro and Donald were born to get guys like Stairs or Duchscherer.

Edit: Now that I think of it, Matt had another year on his deal. But you get my point.

by **The Savior** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:55:33

JFLNYC wrote:
kenrosenthal wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:Having a guy like a healthy Duchscherer in your pen could be a key to another WS. If Donald plays for 15 years he's never going to be that kind of difference-maker. If Duchscherer walks because he does great for the Phils, I'll wish him well.

my thoughts exactly.

Yeah. I mean, they could have waited and signed Matt Stairs this off-season, too, rather than giving up Fabio for him. With a team like the Phils, you're working on the margins to get that little bit extra, just like a Matt Stairs. Fringy prospects like Castro and Donald were born to get guys like Stairs or Duchscherer.

Edit: Now that I think of it, Matt had another year on his deal. But you get my point.

Stairs wasn't coming off of a broken leg or torn tricep muscle. Not really a comparable situation. And Castro doesn't compare to Donald at all aside from both having the letter "a" in their last name.

by **kenrosenthal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:56:48

mlbtraderumorsRT @JoeCStarTribune Source: #Twins asked about Halladay, were told they weren't on list of teams for which he would waive no-trade clause.

by **SideshowBob** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:57:20

JFLNYC wrote:Just to revisit JPR's original proposal for the umpteenth time, I think we can all agree that Happ is nothing special. That doesn't mean he's without value. A decent 3/4/5 starter at a bargain price has value. But he's borderline throw-in in a deal of this magnitude.

I totally disagree with this. I know there is a strong feeling from many that Happ is doing it with smoke an mirrors and will not amount to much of anything, but he has quite a lot more value than a "borderline throw-in". He's (relatively) young, he's cheap and will be so for a number of years, and he's had actual major league success (8-2, 3.38 ERA over 135 innings is nothing to sneeze at, especially pitching at a "hitter's park"). On top of that, it's not like he wasn't good in the minors -- he performed pretty well at most every level at reasonable ages (not young but certainly not old either). And he's left handed to the whatever extent that that is valued (probably not too much admittedly for a starter). He's also been healthy (right? I don't think he's had any significant injury trouble).

Honestly, he has a lot of value. On top of whatever he may contribute going forward, he also had a very large PR value as a major league guy who has already had success. I think given the situation with the Jays right now, getting an established player makes a very big difference. I wouldn't even be surprised if they consider Happ a critical element at this point -- at the very least, I bet they'd only take a deal starting with Happ/Drabek or Happ/Brown but wouldn't take one that is sans Happ starting with Drabek/Brown. Happ (major leaguer) + blue chip is a minimum starting point IMHO.

So JPR essentially asked for two potential studs (Drabek and Brown) plus a productive, but unspectacular player (Happ) for one established stud (Halladay). That may have been a bit in Toronto's favor, but not excessively so.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. Two stud prospects and an established but cheap good major leaguer would be a huge get for Toronto. It's far more than comparable pitchers have gotten back in recent trades -- yes, I realize that Halladay has 1.5 years left and that's big, but that amount is a lot more than Sabathia and Santana brought back. And given the NTC (potentially limiting suiters) and the Jays unwillingness to allow negotiating for a contract extension with a trade and you see Halladay's value lessened.

I would probably be okay if we ended up doing the deal for that, mostly because our current farm system state and majors situation allows it. But I just think it's far more that they should get in this deal; it's overpaying. Now, JPR may simple only settle for overpaying because he's on an ego trip or on a scorched earth apathy ride or whatever but I have no problem with Amaro holding out to hope he becomes rational and accepts a reasonable deal. Because as far as I can tell, the Phillies are probably the only team that can/would even consider what he's asking for and accepting that (from the Phillies prospective) is just bidding against themselves.

by **PSUsarge** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:58:22

kenrosenthal wrote:
mlbtraderumorsRT @JoeCStarTribune Source: #Twins asked about Halladay, were told they weren't on list of teams for which he would waive no-trade clause.

Ouch. Rejection.

by **702** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 21:58:56

What if we turn around and put Duchscherer in a deal for Halladay?...

by **JFLNYC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 22:00:19

Good points, Bob. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

by **TumblingDice** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 22:01:05

702 wrote:What if we turn around and put Duchscherer in a deal for Halladay?...

Toronto has no use for him, they'd want Donald. Which makes this seem kind of curious. Maybe its an attempt to get Ricciardi to speed things up.

Duchscherer for Donald is a no brainer in any galaxy unless you're using Donald in a deal for a bigger piece.

by **The Savior** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 22:01:30

702 wrote:What if we turn around and put Duchscherer in a deal for Halladay?...

Toronto has enough injured pitchers right now they're paying (Marcum, McGowan).

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Halladay VI: Smug-Off For the Ages Sponsored by lightsout54