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60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Grotewold » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:13:49

WhiteyFan wrote:
rolex wrote:
WhiteyFan wrote:
The Savior wrote:We traded Sixto for the best catcher in baseball and our best player. Would not include him in the fire klentak thread.


Would've been a great trade had we been loaded with pitching prospects and only a catcher away from being really good, but at this point, Id rather have Sixto.

Would be even greater if Realmuto would have been signed to an extension.


How would this have helped our awful pitching situation?


I mean, he easily could have led us to a deep playoff run. The pitching injuries last year were insane. And is balling this year.

I take your point but kind of disassociate Klentak from the JT trade and Harper signing, and even the Segura trade to an extent. I see those as over-corrections to the sins of the previous regimes, as well as understandable pressure from Middleton.

That said, I still can't point to much shrewdness or skill I've seen from Klentak.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby JFLNYC » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:19:36

MoBettle wrote:
Werthless wrote:
Polar Bear Phan wrote:With Jonathan Arauz being on the Red Sox, I was looking back at that Ken Giles trade and it is amazing that Klentak traded Giles (and J. Arauz) at peak value, got five players back, and still managed to lose that trade in hindsight (IMO).

:dh:

Giles trade was smart and forward thinking. Not every prospect trade will work out.

I remember wishing we had picked up Fisher on that trade. He hasn't worked out either.


Just seems like a classic hallmark of Klentak moves, general idea of the move makes sense in theory but just didn't identify the specific right move.

2016 draft: take a bargain guy first so you can have more money to spend the rest of the draft. Sounds great until everyone you take ends up being bad.

General approach with the rebuild: Build a young cheap roster for a few years and then bring in an elite player or two to put them over the top. Sounds great until you don't develop enough young cheap talent.

Pitching: Not investing money in veteran arms due to the variability of year to year performance sounds great until all the bargain guys you identified (starters last year/relievers this year) aren't major league quality at their positions.

Even Kapler: Hiring a young progressive manager sounds great until you hire a total wacko that was obviously going to become a lightening rod for the local media.

You could make further analogies with signing Santana, moving Rhys to LF, the Santana trade, arguably the JT trade etc.... I just hope Middleton doesn't take from this that hiring someone like Klentak was the problem, as opposed to hiring Klentak specifically.


Excellent post. Shouldn’t be bottom-paged.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Uncle Milty » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:28:19

MoBettle wrote:
Werthless wrote:
Polar Bear Phan wrote:With Jonathan Arauz being on the Red Sox, I was looking back at that Ken Giles trade and it is amazing that Klentak traded Giles (and J. Arauz) at peak value, got five players back, and still managed to lose that trade in hindsight (IMO).

:dh:

Giles trade was smart and forward thinking. Not every prospect trade will work out.

I remember wishing we had picked up Fisher on that trade. He hasn't worked out either.


Just seems like a classic hallmark of Klentak moves, general idea of the move makes sense in theory but just didn't identify the specific right move.

2016 draft: take a bargain guy first so you can have more money to spend the rest of the draft. Sounds great until everyone you take ends up being bad.

General approach with the rebuild: Build a young cheap roster for a few years and then bring in an elite player or two to put them over the top. Sounds great until you don't develop enough young cheap talent.

Pitching: Not investing money in veteran arms due to the variability of year to year performance sounds great until all the bargain guys you identified (starters last year/relievers this year) aren't major league quality at their positions.

Even Kapler: Hiring a young progressive manager sounds great until you hire a total wacko that was obviously going to become a lightening rod for the local media.

You could make further analogies with signing Santana, moving Rhys to LF, the Santana trade, arguably the JT trade etc.... I just hope Middleton doesn't take from this that hiring someone like Klentak was the problem, as opposed to hiring Klentak specifically.


There's no combination of Astros prospects at the time (that you could reasonably expect in return) to make it a huge win for the Phillies. Not to mention how smart the decision to trade Giles looks in hindsight.

Agree with much of the rest. The Kapler mistake was easy to see before the benefit of hindsight.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby MoBettle » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:37:14

Fair but he also didn't have to trade him to the Astros. Who knows who else was interested or what they were offering. Or you could have flipped some of the prospects you got for other prospects or players that would actually be contributors.

Again not saying his process was wrong with the Giles trade and criticizing it is 100% hindsight but just saying it's part of a consistent trend with him.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Uncle Milty » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:50:58

I'm with ya. Klentak's definitely more Medusa than Midas. At a certain point that's not random luck.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby The B1G Piece » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:56:20

WhiteyFan wrote:JPC still raking. Sixto to make his debut. Prolly belongs in the fire Klentak thread.

No offense, but J.P. Crawford would be 12th on the Phillies in OPS.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby JFLNYC » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:00:47

He’s got a .287 SLG.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Werthless » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:11:50

MoBettle wrote:
Werthless wrote:
Polar Bear Phan wrote:With Jonathan Arauz being on the Red Sox, I was looking back at that Ken Giles trade and it is amazing that Klentak traded Giles (and J. Arauz) at peak value, got five players back, and still managed to lose that trade in hindsight (IMO).

:dh:

Giles trade was smart and forward thinking. Not every prospect trade will work out.

I remember wishing we had picked up Fisher on that trade. He hasn't worked out either.


Just seems like a classic hallmark of Klentak moves, general idea of the move makes sense in theory but just didn't identify the specific right move.

2016 draft: take a bargain guy first so you can have more money to spend the rest of the draft. Sounds great until everyone you take ends up being bad.

General approach with the rebuild: Build a young cheap roster for a few years and then bring in an elite player or two to put them over the top. Sounds great until you don't develop enough young cheap talent.

Pitching: Not investing money in veteran arms due to the variability of year to year performance sounds great until all the bargain guys you identified (starters last year/relievers this year) aren't major league quality at their positions.

Even Kapler: Hiring a young progressive manager sounds great until you hire a total wacko that was obviously going to become a lightening rod for the local media.

You could make further analogies with signing Santana, moving Rhys to LF, the Santana trade, arguably the JT trade etc.... I just hope Middleton doesn't take from this that hiring someone like Klentak was the problem, as opposed to hiring Klentak specifically.

This is a very good rebuttal. Makes me reconsider how I view the front office effectiveness. Thanks.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Bill McNeal » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:15:43

The B1G Piece wrote:
WhiteyFan wrote:JPC still raking. Sixto to make his debut. Prolly belongs in the fire Klentak thread.

No offense, but J.P. Crawford would be 12th on the Phillies in OPS.


He just meant that JPC is still cleaning up the yard after all those storms.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby The B1G Piece » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:16:56

JFLNYC wrote:He’s got a .287 SLG.

Which is, sadly, higher than Scott Kingery's OPS.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Bucky » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:19:04

also, sixto still hasn't thrown an MLB pitch. TINSTAAPP

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Slowhand » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:20:24

Bill McNeal wrote:
The B1G Piece wrote:
WhiteyFan wrote:JPC still raking. Sixto to make his debut. Prolly belongs in the fire Klentak thread.

No offense, but J.P. Crawford would be 12th on the Phillies in OPS.


He just meant that JPC is still cleaning up the yard after all those storms.


Thought he meant he was also part of the grounds crew.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby swishnicholson » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:35:49

Bill McNeal wrote:
The B1G Piece wrote:
WhiteyFan wrote:JPC still raking. Sixto to make his debut. Prolly belongs in the fire Klentak thread.

No offense, but J.P. Crawford would be 12th on the Phillies in OPS.


He just meant that JPC is still cleaning up the yard after all those storms.


yeah, really. even if Crawford does manage to rise to major league average and Segura to sink there I would put that in the column listed above as good ideas that didn't pan out. It was a chance to go from average at best at a position to above average, and my theory is you need a good number of above average players to win.
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby The B1G Piece » Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:42:45

swishnicholson wrote:
Bill McNeal wrote:
The B1G Piece wrote:
WhiteyFan wrote:JPC still raking. Sixto to make his debut. Prolly belongs in the fire Klentak thread.

No offense, but J.P. Crawford would be 12th on the Phillies in OPS.


He just meant that JPC is still cleaning up the yard after all those storms.


yeah, really. even if Crawford does manage to rise to major league average and Segura to sink there I would put that in the column listed above as good ideas that didn't pan out. It was a chance to go from average at best at a position to above average, and my theory is you need a good number of above average players to win.

I agree, just not sold on Crawford ever becoming a major league average player.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby Grotewold » Fri Aug 21, 2020 13:08:10

Bucky wrote:also, sixto still hasn't thrown an MLB pitch. TINSTAAPP


Gotta say, I never really got right with that expression. I mean, I get it, to an extent. But there's a fucking massive marginal upside to pitching prospects.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby ek20 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 13:21:17

Ehh we just made a trade with the yanks

Addison Russ
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby heyeaglefn » Fri Aug 21, 2020 13:23:23

ek20 wrote:Ehh we just made a trade with the yanks

Addison Russ

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Trade news: The New York Yankees acquired RP Addison Russ from the Philadelphia Phillies, sources tell ESPN. The 25-year-old right-hander has been dominant over his minor league career, with a 2.48 ERA and 200 strikeouts in 152.2 innings. He’ll head to New York’s alternate site.

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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby ek20 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 13:24:05

This guy can't be good considering our situation but....
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby ek20 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 13:30:10

getting David Hale
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Re: 60 Games To Leave Your Bubble: Phillies Thread

Unread postby heyeaglefn » Fri Aug 21, 2020 13:32:03

Hale was DFA'd by the Yankees earlier this week.

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