slugsrbad wrote:how is the new Greek/EU deal any different from what was already rejected?

Politics happened. This is the politics thread, where you get incisive political analyses like this.

My hunch is that all parties are emphasizing the fiscal beatings for Greece will continue, while Germany/EC Inc has quietly acceded to some portion of debt relief - that is, reducing the principal debt amount at issue. We'll have to look for that in the fine print.

EDIT: CNN's execrable coverage yields what they call the "text of the agreement", which is basically just an extended presser. No explicit statement on reduction of debt, other than this tantalizing 'non-denial denial':

The Euro Summit stresses that nominal haircuts on the debt cannot be undertaken.

keep your eye on "nominal"

It seems to me (and I really find the economics of currency mystifying) that the Euro was a bad idea, especially now that "ever closer union" is more or less dead. Maybe way back when, the idea was that the logic of the Euro itself would drive the EU to be a proper sovereign state rather than a lose confederacy or association of states. But things haven't worked out that way. The old "democratic deficit" turns out to be real (and if we look at the US Constitution as a precedent, the ratification of the US Constitution reduced popular sovereignty substantially but in the 18th c. with the franchise much more limited than today you could get away with such things and even then it almost didn't happen and remember too 18th c. America was a much more homogenous place than 20th c. Europe) and most Europeans don't want to give up national sovereignty.

So, it seems to me the Euro was intended to be a step on a journey now largely abandoned, rather than an end in itself. Though doing so in a crisis is probably a bad idea, maybe Europeans should start thinking about unwinding the Euro. Again, this is where my knowledge of currency and banking and economics becomes a handicap, because I have no idea how to do that and minimize the disruption. But maybe you start by issuing debt in your own new currency. Or somehow phasing in new national currencies while keeping the Euro intact. To be sure, this would complicate transactions--you'd need to price items in both Euros and Lire, or whatever, and those prices would not change at the same rate. I dunno. But it seems Europe has dug itself a hole with the Euro, and the Greek bailout seems to be digging it deeper.

slugsrbad wrote:I've only paid attention to the bailout tangentially, but how is the new Greek/EU deal any different from what was already rejected? It sounds like the strict austerity measurements and pension reform that was already opposed.

It's different in that it is two weeks later, so the already crappy economy got to enjoy two weeks with a major cash crunch at the height of tourism season.

I've found it interesting that many countries here use both the euro and their own currency, whichever is better for them at the time. I don't know if that's good or bad (maybe good if euros are being bought when they are doing poorly?), but I thought it was surprising.

Monkeyboy wrote:I've found it interesting that many countries here use both the euro and their own currency, whichever is better for them at the time. I don't know if that's good or bad (maybe good if euros are being bought when they are doing poorly?), but I thought it was surprising.

What countries use their own currencies within the Eurozone?

jerseyhoya wrote:

Monkeyboy wrote:I've found it interesting that many countries here use both the euro and their own currency, whichever is better for them at the time. I don't know if that's good or bad (maybe good if euros are being bought when they are doing poorly?), but I thought it was surprising.

What countries use their own currencies within the Eurozone?

The two that switched around on us were Hungary and the Czech Republik. They are EU countries who are not yet on the euro, but the hotels and some restaurants demanded/requested euros when the euro was doing well. And when the euro faltered, they went back to taking their own currency only. It was especially pronounced in the Czech Rep and also depended on if you were paying cash or credit.

Money ("money") is psychology. And everyone's crazy.

>>initiate PtK-level musing

Two of the standard Econ 101 homilies are "money is a store of value" and "money is a medium of exchange". You don't say. Perhaps you wouldn't mind unspooling what either of those bromides actually fucking means. Oh, your next class starts in 5 minutes? Sure, I understand.

Just understand this: you're only likely to undertake exchanges when you have a sense of what you value, "in your own terms" (whatever that means). Whatever the other party(s) value is their business.

Uniform currencies can remove tactical barriers to more efficient, effective exchanges. They can act as lubricants, as emery boards, etc. But the promises they embody - that 'store of value' thing - can cramp the style of the groups of people who are, or who believe they are, most responsible for the economic health of the polity using it as their principal medium of exchange. A currency can keep the gears of an assembled craft grinding smoothly, but a currency is not a very useful implement for steering one.

Money is a vague, blurry, smear-y, fluctuating proxy for some vague blurry smear-y collective understanding of 'value'. It's always a bad wad of compromises, and usually, at its best, the least bad wad of compromises. Bill Gates is "worth" $Xty billion? Bullshit. Is he a big deal, a person whose contributions a broad, general, loosely organized consensus comprised of a bewildering number of variously motivated constituencies says is worthy of acknowledging as a big deal, in money terms, probably worth more than your contributions so far, or mine? You know it.

But you don't know much more, much more precisely. Kind of like, from a different end of the spectrum, nobody knows how much Donald Trump is "worth".

Unfortunately, similar to Bucky's boat cartoon, the currency 'craft' has a variety of occupants.... And since the occupants can't "know" (how could they know?), whence their good fortune - or others' ill fortune - comes, with certainty, they slip into positions supported to a large degree by moralizing incantation, rather than messy, compromised material facts.

Monkeyboy wrote:The two that switched around on us were Hungary and the Czech Republik. They are EU countries who are not yet on the euro, but the hotels and some restaurants demanded/requested euros when the euro was doing well. And when the euro faltered, they went back to taking their own currency only. It was especially pronounced in the Czech Rep and also depended on if you were paying cash or credit.

Interesting.

I visited that country a decade ago, and they were in the process of switching over to the Euro then. Fascinating that they haven't fully integrated the Euro yet.

Bibi hates the Iran deal - so tell me more

drsmooth wrote:Bibi hates the Iran deal - so tell me more

The Daily Show did an A+ montage of him proclaiming that Iran was months away from a bomb from the mid 90s to the present; climaxing, of course, with the clipart bomb graphic he used recently.

I really think the demographics are on our side in Iran, assuming water shortages or whatever don't destabilize the country.

Clinton up 43 points on Bernie in Iowa

what a close race, lol

on the clown car side, the newest entrant leads:

Walker polled 18 percent, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, 12 percent, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee all at 10 percent, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, 9 percent, and Texas Sen. Ted Cruz, 8 percent. Billionaire businessman Donald Trump was next at 7 percent.

Retired physician Ben Carson and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, former Texas Gov. Rick Perry, former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum, businesswoman Carly Fiorina, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, 2 percent, and Ohio Gov. John Kasich were at 5 percent or less.

On Iran deal, this just in: Donald Trump is idiot

drsmooth wrote:On Iran deal, this just in: Donald Trump is idiot

Breaking: Water is wet


I have to presume that Trump is a savant

Trump just tweeted this pic



The soldiers are Waffen SS from WWII. Only the smartest, classiest campaigning from the Donald, since he's so bright and successful and he knows how to manage people.

Oh and Lindsey Graham has his sights set on the presidency - of Israel

jerseyhoya wrote:Trump just tweeted this pic



The soldiers are Waffen SS from WWII. Only the smartest, classiest campaigning from the Donald, since he's so bright and successful and he knows how to manage people.

the dollars in the background are a nice, classy, touch

jerseyhoya is going to vote for trump. holy shit.