pacino wrote:

While I find Rick Perry personally abhorrent, one can read him as making the opposite but equally logical case, and the Texans keep electing him so clearly it's a winning argument there. But education does strike me as a national issue, and the USDOE has an important and helpful role IMO.

It may be a winning argument, but it doesn't mean it's working. By almost any measure, the citizens of Texas are in terrible straits right now.

I'm all for idealogical arguments, but show me where they've worked, you know.

dajafi wrote:

pacino wrote:

While I find Rick Perry personally abhorrent, one can read him as making the opposite but equally logical case, and the Texans keep electing him so clearly it's a winning argument there. But education does strike me as a national issue, and the USDOE has an important and helpful role IMO.

It may be a winning argument, but it doesn't mean it's working. By almost any measure, the citizens of Texas are in terrible straits right now.

I'm all for idealogical arguments, but show me where they've worked, you know.

How are you defining "working"? I know their outcomes are horrible around the stuff you and I care about: their schools stink, all the jobs created are sub-poverty, they're poisoning the rest of us, etc. But he doesn't seem to care about any of that, and they keep winning elections.

pacino wrote:

dajafi wrote:

pacino wrote:

While I find Rick Perry personally abhorrent, one can read him as making the opposite but equally logical case, and the Texans keep electing him so clearly it's a winning argument there. But education does strike me as a national issue, and the USDOE has an important and helpful role IMO.

It may be a winning argument, but it doesn't mean it's working. By almost any measure, the citizens of Texas are in terrible straits right now.

I'm all for idealogical arguments, but show me where they've worked, you know.

How are you defining "working"? I know their outcomes are horrible around the stuff you and I care about: their schools stink, all the jobs created are sub-poverty, they're poisoning the rest of us, etc. But he doesn't seem to care about any of that, and they keep winning elections.

well, a healthy, educated populace would be nice. he's winning elections, but at what cost? i just don't want to call the way he views the role of government as 'logical' when there is no outcome to show that other than that he remains the head of it.

pacino wrote:alright, i see what you are saying now. holy crap is that depressing.

SK790 wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:Yeah, sales tax is horribly regressive.

Thanks for answering before I got done typing.

I mainly asked because sales tax in WA is 10% and even though I'm making 10K more than what I was making in ND, I'm not saving any more money than I was there. Sure some of that is cost of living, but pure cost of living wasn't that big of a difference. My rent right now is only $100 higher than it was in ND.

dajafi wrote:

pacino wrote:alright, i see what you are saying now. holy crap is that depressing.

True. But the demographics of that state are changing so quickly that the policy mix will have to change as well. Even Perry is liberal, by national Republican standards, on some immigration issues. I don't think they'll lose that state anytime soon, but I have some hope the democratic process will continue to work the way it's supposed to, which probably will be good for the things we tend to support.

smitty wrote:

SK790 wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:Yeah, sales tax is horribly regressive.

Thanks for answering before I got done typing.

I mainly asked because sales tax in WA is 10% and even though I'm making 10K more than what I was making in ND, I'm not saving any more money than I was there. Sure some of that is cost of living, but pure cost of living wasn't that big of a difference. My rent right now is only $100 higher than it was in ND.

We don't have a State income tax. I'd rather we did and they reduce the Sales tax but that ain't happening. I'd probably end up paying more in income tax than sales tax but the really high sales tax bums me out.

Plus we have lots of fees and stuff here. We used to pay a few hundred to renew our vehicle tabs every year but they initiative that away and then it only cost 45 bucks. They've been jacking that up every year since.

Olympia is pretty good at collecting money. They have lots of ways to do it.

Luzinski's Gut wrote:The philosophical question to me has always been: how much government is enough? I am wired to believe the government that governs least governs best...

FTN wrote:

pacino wrote:well, a shit ton less would go to the federal government, the poor would pay a shit ton more, and the rich would pay less. not sure of the hard numbers, but those are the broad strokes.

yeah, see, the "broad strokes" really isn't what i'm looking for, i want to look at actual data.

smitty wrote:

SK790 wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:Yeah, sales tax is horribly regressive.

Thanks for answering before I got done typing.

I mainly asked because sales tax in WA is 10% and even though I'm making 10K more than what I was making in ND, I'm not saving any more money than I was there. Sure some of that is cost of living, but pure cost of living wasn't that big of a difference. My rent right now is only $100 higher than it was in ND.

We don't have a State income tax. I'd rather we did and they reduce the Sales tax but that ain't happening. I'd probably end up paying more in income tax than sales tax but the really high sales tax bums me out.

Plus we have lots of fees and stuff here. We used to pay a few hundred to renew our vehicle tabs every year but they initiative that away and then it only cost 45 bucks. They've been jacking that up every year since.

Olympia is pretty good at collecting money. They have lots of ways to do it.

smitty wrote:To be honest, a Teriyaki tax would probably solve all our fiscal problems in this state.

FTN wrote:im sure that if i put the energy and time in, i could actually calculate this, but instead, i'll just ask the question and maybe someone else can find an answer or calculate an answer. as a preface, im not saying this is the solution, because i dont know what the numbers look like, which is why im asking what the numbers would be.

marginal income tax rates in the US are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33% and 35% depending on income.

then you have tons of other taxes, like estate tax and property tax, and then you have sales tax.

if the current structure was changed and income tax went down drastically, while sales tax went up drastically, how would that impact the total bottom line in terms of tax dollars collected?

for instance, if the income tax rates were changed to: 5%, 9%, 14%, 18%, 24%, 27% and 28% but sales tax was bumped up by 50% in all states (in PA it would be 9% instead of 6%) how would that impact the overall bottom line?

i'm not really interested in digging in to things like property tax and inheritance tax right now, i'm more interested in sales tax and income tax.

math was never my strong suit, but i know some people here are mathematically gifted. help me understand this.

ShouldaKept wrote:

FTN wrote:im sure that if i put the energy and time in, i could actually calculate this, but instead, i'll just ask the question and maybe someone else can find an answer or calculate an answer. as a preface, im not saying this is the solution, because i dont know what the numbers look like, which is why im asking what the numbers would be.

marginal income tax rates in the US are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33% and 35% depending on income.

then you have tons of other taxes, like estate tax and property tax, and then you have sales tax.

if the current structure was changed and income tax went down drastically, while sales tax went up drastically, how would that impact the total bottom line in terms of tax dollars collected?

for instance, if the income tax rates were changed to: 5%, 9%, 14%, 18%, 24%, 27% and 28% but sales tax was bumped up by 50% in all states (in PA it would be 9% instead of 6%) how would that impact the overall bottom line?

i'm not really interested in digging in to things like property tax and inheritance tax right now, i'm more interested in sales tax and income tax.

math was never my strong suit, but i know some people here are mathematically gifted. help me understand this.

This is where you would start: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Tax-Stats-2

Have fun!