Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Wolfgang622 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:23:06

JFLNYC wrote:I think you have to be careful not to view each of Mitt's gaffes and mistakes in isolation. Starting with his convention speech, through Libya, Iran, 47%, the Palestinian question, etc., there has been one misstep after another. On Monday he didn't even have enough time to initialize his new strategy before things blew up. It's as though he's having his own equivalent of bimbo eruptions.

The cumulative effect of these missteps is to confirm his worst characteristics, the result of which is twofold: First, although there's no question that the vast, vast majority of voters are already calcified in their choice, the ones who are still undecided will decide the election. Continued reinforcement of the worst of Mitt is not going to bring them into his camp. Second, the continued hand-wringing and hair-pulling from the conservatives pundits is a reflection of the disenchantment of Mitt's base. That base is not going to vote for Obama but, if enough of them aren't sufficiently energized to vote, that alone could cause his defeat.


Here's what I think (Because I know you are all dying to know):

As I said when I originally posted the link to the video in this very thread, I think this, in the end, will be little more than perhaps some "bulletin board" material for the Obama GOTV campaign.

The most important effect it will have on Romney is what it has basically already done: robbed him of 2-3 more days of trying to take control of the dialogue surrounding this election. Is that fatal yet? Not just yet, but time is really starting not to be on Mitt's side, and he can't afford too many more days where the messaging around his campaign is out of the control of his campaign.

dajafi rightly said that, in most presidential elections since the dawn of the television era, the better candidate wins. The corollary I would add to that is that the candidate whose message remains the most consistent throughout the campaign wins. In other words, if you find your candidate has to continually shift the "message" of his campaign, it's a sure sign hes losing. 2008: Obama is Hope & Change; What the hell was McCain's message again? Romney was already in the midst of a "relaunch" of his message, when he got hit with this stuff, causing him to have to shift back into defensive messaging for a few days. Obama's messaging has been far more consistent throughout the campaign to this point, and if that holds true through the period right after the first debate, it's probably all but over.

Finally, I think the root problem with Romney as a candidate is this: he gives the distinct impression, fairly or unfairly, that the only thing he REALLY believes in is that he should be president, and that he is qualified to be president because he is rich and wants to be president, and people tend not to like that. Again, I am not saying this is an accurate portrayal of Romney the man, or that he really doesn't have things he believes in. The problem is the combination of circumstances: for at least the last 5 years, Romney has held no job other than running for president. This fact alone can tend to give voters the impression that the most important thing to Mitt Romney is becoming President Mitt Romney - after all, most voters couldn't spend ALL their time over a 5 year period running for President (twice). Nevertheless, I don't think this would be by itself fatal; however, when you combine it with the fact that (like most politicians) he has shown a tendency to tell whatever group is in front of him what they want to hear on hot-button social issues, and that his campaign has shown a truly bizarre reluctance to share anything resembling clear, detailed policy proposals, his own behaviors tend to reinforce the general impression that the most important thing to this guy is to be President.

I think that is ultimately what will do him in.
"I'm in a bar with the games sound turned off and that Cespedes home run still sounded like inevitability."

-swish

Wolfgang622
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 28653
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 23:11:51
Location: Baseball Heaven

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Wolfgang622 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:32:05

JFLNYC wrote:Knowing why the poll numbers are the way they are is way beyond my expertise. But I will venture this: America has re-elected a President during times of economic distress only once (FDR in '36). One could make the argument that Romney should be leading Obama in the polls by a double-digit margin. Most pundits attribute Obama's bucking the trend to his likability factor. But likability is relative. It may well be that Romney's relative un-likability -- reinforced by his gaffes and mistakes -- is the reason his campaign is floundering in spite of conditions which suggest he should have a comfortable lead in the polls.


I think the "economic distress" argument, and the idea that Obama should be losing heavily, have been overplayed. Nate Silver has a fine post about this: what counts isn't so much whether voters feel they were better off than they were FOUR years ago, as much as it is that in the year-or-so run up to the election things have been improving. The charts in this post are very instructive. Note especially the trend in jobs numbers in the run-up to the 2004 election, and the 2012 election (hint: despite poor jobs numbers during the first half of the Bush and Obama first terms, the numbers got steadily if slowly better in the year-and-a-half or so in the run up to their re-election days). These are why Nate says, and has really always said, the "fundamentals," despite the CW that the economy is bad and Obama "should" be losing, actually favor a narrow victory for the incumbent.
"I'm in a bar with the games sound turned off and that Cespedes home run still sounded like inevitability."

-swish

Wolfgang622
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 28653
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 23:11:51
Location: Baseball Heaven

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby td11 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:36:00

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... st-romney/

Even if Republican-leaning voters don’t believe that Romney is talking about many of his own supporters, some of them will still find the arrogance and contempt in these statements to be extremely off-putting. The implication of what Romney was saying is that more people need to be paying income tax, but there is almost no constituency for this idea. He has gone on to say, “I think people would like to be paying taxes.” This is beyond Mondale-esque in its political stupidity. We may be surprised by just how many Republican-leaning voters are disgusted by all of this.
td11
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 35802
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 03:04:40

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:41:53

vegas has been climbing Obama for a while now, but this is pretty crazy

Barack Obama -400
Mitt Romney +250

jamiethekiller
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 26938
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 03:31:02

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby The Nightman Cometh » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:58:40

Paraphrasing Silver:

Polls don't make sense. Obama at around 3 point lead. State polls are confusing.
The Nightman Cometh
Dropped Anchor
Dropped Anchor
 
Posts: 8553
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 14:35:45

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Barry Jive » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:00:52

To clarify, the Obama numbers make sense, he said. Just the state ones are crazy.

Barry Jive
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 37856
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 21:53:43
Location: I'm Doug, solamente Doug.

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby The Nightman Cometh » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:05:41

Word.
The Nightman Cometh
Dropped Anchor
Dropped Anchor
 
Posts: 8553
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 14:35:45

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:32:18

Regardless of how the election turns out, the real problem, and it's been the problem since 2006, is that the Republican coalition is based on a portion of the population that is shrinking. We're at the point now where probably a majority of Republican activists really and truly believe that their failures (2006 and 2008) are the result of George Bush centrism and that the way to win is by becoming more extreme. Indeed, it almost seems like there really is no Republican Party anymore, rather there is an odd assortment of ideologues and cranks funded by individuals who have lots of their own money and thus aren't accountable to anyone who are able to fire up a base but can't do much else, including govern.

It's not even clear that conservatives who actually are capable (people like Jindal and maybe even Christie) would satisfy the cranks. JH mocked my Michelle Bachmann predictions 4 years ago, and yet I was surprised by how well she did. And Santorum. Sheesh.

The other really interesting thing to look at going forward is what happens in those states (like Kansas) where the new Republican ideology is taking hold. As I see it, there are three possibilities--either those states remain more pragmatic than they appear (this seems to be happening in Louisiana) or they go to hell, or it turns out the right wingers were right all along and places like Kansas become Ayn Randian paradises and everyone wants to move there.
Be Bold!

TenuredVulture
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
 
Posts: 53243
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 00:16:10
Location: Magnolia, AR

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby dajafi » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:03:16

The 47 percent comment is more a symptom than a cause. The cause is that Romney isn't a good politician, as his career numbers show. (I WATCH THE GAMES.) With that in mind, he's unlikely to shift a lot of voters in the next seven weeks or however long it is. He now only can win if Obama disqualifies himself somehow.

As for Paul's larger point, I now think it would take a Hillary landslide against a Santorum type plus the loss of all their 2010 Senate gains plus the House to snap them out of it. Fortunately, if Obama is re-elected and the economy recovers, it could happen in 2016.

dajafi
Moderator / BSG MVP
Moderator / BSG MVP
 
Posts: 24567
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 20:03:18
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Roger Dorn » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:08:59

How can this so called conservative coalition be so pro-America, and yet go against pretty much everything the Founders envisioned. The Founders were rational and pragmatic Deists, who had Faith but were so progressive in their thinking for their period that they knew Church and State needed to be separated. Washington warned against entangling alliances in his Farewell speech, and encouraged trade and amiable relations with foreign nations.

As a registered Republican, it's astounding how regressive this Party has become. I'm a practicing Catholic, but I see no reason to bring my faith into the political realm. Different strokes for different folks.

Seriously considering switching party affiliation to Independent. It's embarrassing.

Roger Dorn
There's Our Old Friend
There's Our Old Friend
 
Posts: 2602
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 00:46:03

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Doll Is Mine » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:13:41

It'll be interesting to see how the red states evolve in the next few election cycles. Already, we're hearing that states like Tennessee and Texas could turn purple at some point.

Doll Is Mine
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 27502
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 20:40:30

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:14:49

Roger, there's an entire publishing industry dedicated to asserting the opposite regarding the Founders. You may have heard about the dust up concerning David barton's book on Jefferson, and when Glenn Beck is out their flogging Thomas Paine as a right wing hero, you know something has gone terribly awry.
Be Bold!

TenuredVulture
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
You've Got to Be Kidding Me!
 
Posts: 53243
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 00:16:10
Location: Magnolia, AR

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Houshphandzadeh » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:17:25

just read today that Paine wasn't allowed to vote in 1806

Houshphandzadeh
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 64362
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:15:12
Location: nascar victory

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:25:39

First, I agree that the video is unlikely to sway many of the people who have already decided, and probably not as many undecideds as it should, but I have to believe it will affect turnout. This is just getting the dem base energized, and most likely will keep some republicans home. Turnout decides close elections.

Second, why does jeff think liberals on this site sit at home and never talk to smart conservatives? I talk to them all the time. I grew up in redneck country, Pennsyltucky. I've been surrounded by conservatives for most of my life and I often talk to them about politics. The debates used to be more interesting than they have been lately because those smart conservatives are starting to admit their party has jumped the shark. They will probably still vote Romney out of some sense of loyalty, but conservatives are starting to take notice. This craziness isn't sustainable, especially with the demographics changing.

When the fever breaks, and I assume it will have to, I'll go back to voting for some republicans like I have for most of my life. No doubt Jeff will continue to assume he knows us when he obviously doesn't know us at all. Conservatives have a lot of great views, but the current group of republicans is not conservative. It's a shame that Jeff conflates the two and doesn't see they aren't the same thing, instead deciding to just attack posters here who are pointing out the obvious absurdity of current republican policies and their ill-equipped champion, Sir Mitt.
Agnostic dyslexic insomniacs lay awake all night wondering if there is a Dog.

Monkeyboy
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 28452
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 21:01:51
Location: Beijing

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Doll Is Mine » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:30:05

Image

Doll Is Mine
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 27502
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 20:40:30

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:32:10

Doll Is Mine wrote:It'll be interesting to see how the red states evolve in the next few election cycles. Already, we're hearing that states like Tennessee and Texas could turn purple at some point.



I read something about Texas recently, though I don't remember where. It pointed out that people have been saying Texas would turn purple for a long time now and it hasn't happened. Whites in the state have steadily moved to the republican party, offsetting the gains made by the increased black and Latino votes. But I have to think there's a point where there are no more whites to turn republican and the increasing % of blacks and Latinos will push the state purple. In fact, I could see it happening quickly because it will be difficult for republicans to pick up more votes. Of course, one strong Latino republican could pull Latinos to the red part of the ledger. If I was a republican strategist, I would be desperately looking for someone like that.
Agnostic dyslexic insomniacs lay awake all night wondering if there is a Dog.

Monkeyboy
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 28452
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 21:01:51
Location: Beijing

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:33:56

Obama is wasting his time. The pirate vote clearly goes to Mitt. They are kindred spirits, making loads of money off other people's work, rising up while trampling others down.
Agnostic dyslexic insomniacs lay awake all night wondering if there is a Dog.

Monkeyboy
Plays the Game the Right Way
Plays the Game the Right Way
 
Posts: 28452
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 21:01:51
Location: Beijing

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Houshphandzadeh » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:36:25

Austin ain't that big

Houshphandzadeh
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 64362
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 19:15:12
Location: nascar victory

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Grotewold » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:38:53

Nor Louisville, surrounded by Kennsylvania

Grotewold
BSG MVP
BSG MVP
 
Posts: 51642
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 09:40:10

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Youseff » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:39:02

Similarly, since 92% of Republicans are voting for Romney, it is unlikely that the 44% of Republicans who say the comments make them more likely to vote for Romney will affect the race.

But independents -- voters who are, by definition, less fixed in their partisanship -- tilt toward the "less likely" over the "more likely" view by a 29% to 15% margin -- although more than half say Romney's comments make no difference.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/157544/voter ... ative.aspx
This is what a real tenderoni likes to do for you

Youseff
Space Cadet
Space Cadet
 
Posts: 22976
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 03:47:53
Location: Ice Mountain

PreviousNext