Where the heck is the New POLITICS Thread?

Postby allentown » Sun Mar 28, 2010 16:35:03

dajafi wrote:Thinking a little more about the possibilities for compromise on the health care bill... while I don't doubt that there's considerable principled opposition to the bill among Republicans, I suspect [url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/what_do_conservatives_believe.html]]those arguing that in the historical context of the health care debate this is a pretty solidly center-right bill are correct.
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Perhaps it takes someone very familiar with liberal health-care reform ideas to say this, but this is not a liberal bill. Liberals believe access to medical care is a public good that should be provided by the public sector. The sop to that approach was the public option, which isn't even in the final law. That's why every time someone terms this socialism, I fantasize about Karl Marx, or maybe William Beveridge, stepping out Marshall McLuhan-style and saying, "You know nothing of my work!"

This bill is Clintonian: It achieves liberal ends through market means, and since conservatives frequently claim they are also in favor of access to medical care, it's not even clear that near-universal coverage can properly be called a liberal end. Not to mention that it's more conservative than the Great Triangulator himself was: It doesn't resemble his reforms so much as the Republican alternative to his reforms. But Democrats haven't gotten credit for that, in part because the opposition of Republicans meant they had to keep their liberals onboard, and that cut against trumpeting the conservative structure of the legislation.

But if President Mitt Romney had proposed this bill, a substantial number among his party would have stood with him on it, and no one would have trouble identifying what was conservative within it. And, to be fair, many Democrats would have fought the legislation every step of the way.


I don't know whether or not this is true, but if there's been a coherent or compelling response from Romney or other defenders of the MA plan (I wouldn't ask Scott Brown for one, as I suspect he'd just start pole-dancing or something) to the charge that Obamacare=Romneycare, I haven't heard it. (If you have, please link--maybe I missed it.)

At the same time, while some Republicans did propose health care reforms, their common theme was solely in the direction of cost controls, not better health. To paraphrase this piece, the Republican health care plans amounted to protect the wallets of the healthy and wealthy from the misfortunes of the sick and poor. That's not a framework that easily accommodates compromise, even before you throw in the full-press hyperbolizing of the bill's awfulness and eevil socialism and all the rest. I can buy that principle for a lot of Republicans was as much a part of the "ONLY try to kill it" strategy as politics was.

About the best that Romney has done in explaining his flip-flop is to alternate between the excuses that his plan was better, because it was implemented at the state rather than national level and the plan that he proposed was marginally different than what the legislature adopted
We now know that Amaro really is running the Phillies. He and Monty seem to have ignored the committee.
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Postby dajafi » Sun Mar 28, 2010 16:36:21

Not to speak for Vox, but he might take issue with my characterization of opposition to marriage rights for same-sex couples as indicating "bigotry, irrationality and fear."

(edit: this was in response to phdave's post--I wasn't counting on getting knocked to the next page ;))

On another subject, here's an interesting article about one form of "corruption" in the federal government with deep bipartisan antecedents.

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Postby allentown » Sun Mar 28, 2010 16:38:49

dajafi wrote:
VoxOrion wrote:
dajafi wrote:I think you keep emphasizing the hyperbole, rather than the actions taken in partial response to the hyperbole, because the truth is that there's no liberal parallel to the vandalism and threats against a dozen or so Democratic elected officials. Speech is protected, if selectively obnoxious. If I didn't hear about someone cutting the gas line to Katherine Harris's home or mailing nooses to Ted Olson, I'm happy to reassess my view.


You are coming off as very slippery here. Are you saying liberals don't vandalize or make death threats, or are you narrowing your framework such so that it doesn't count unless it's against an elected official? Are lefties who do such things outliers, not to be concerned with, but righties are not? Why?


What I'm saying is that I think it's much easier to draw a direct line between the inflammatory, hyperbolic statements of prominent Republicans, including both the Palin/Bachmann electeds and the Limbaugh/Beck media crowd, and the violent, illegal actions of right-leaning "activists" than to do the same thing on the left.

(And this is even before considering statements from many on the right, even a putative centrist like Scott Brown, expressing some sympathy with the sick bastard who flew his airplane into the IRS building in Texas a couple months back. Nobody wanted to "claim" him, but they sure seemed in a hurry to give his insane rage some credence and acknowledge its validity. Again, I think that if something analogous happened with Democratic electeds somewhat cheering a murderous, crazy action for its supposed political groundings, the public reaction would have been much more strongly condemnatory. We both see a double standard here, just in different directions.)

But this is probably one of those pointless debates, where I acknowledge that both sides have extreme voices and elements but argue that those folks are much closer to the heart of the Republican/"conservative" faction than on the center-left, where we can't even sustain an anger-based radio network. Then you counter, I'm guessing, that there's every bit as much rage and actual violence on the left but the liberal media throws a blanket over it or mischaracterizes it, or some such. I'm sure we both have better things to do than actually go through these motions, so I'm happy to take all this as read.

This is true. However the really huge difference is that you didn't have the left going out and buying guns and ammo in record quantities and forming well-armed militias following the election of Bush II. When you deal with emotional and highly incendiary rhetoric from the right and from the left, you have to consider which group is brimming with weaponry and which group is sipping latte's and chablis as they type their internet rants.
We now know that Amaro really is running the Phillies. He and Monty seem to have ignored the committee.
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Postby VoxOrion » Sun Mar 28, 2010 19:26:31

Latte's
here, here, and here

Chablis
here

Internet rants

ImageImage
ImageImage

ImageImage
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Postby VoxOrion » Sun Mar 28, 2010 19:40:38

dajafi wrote:What I'm saying is that I think it's much easier to draw a direct line between the inflammatory, hyperbolic statements of prominent Republicans, including both the Palin/Bachmann electeds and the Limbaugh/Beck media crowd, and the violent, illegal actions of right-leaning "activists" than to do the same thing on the left.


I don't disagree necessarily, but I think there's a linkage in your thought process that I don't agree with - that of violent illegal actions and the need for someone to "incite" them (never mind the definition of "incite"). I don't believe any of these characters make crazies - the sheer volume of their audience indicates this to a large degree. We'd all be dead by now if even 1% of the 15-20 million people who listen to these people all week long were out there blowing stuff up, making death threats, and vandalizing things. I recognize that it's a chicken and egg argument, so there's not far to go with it.

dajafi wrote:But this is probably one of those pointless debates, where I acknowledge that both sides have extreme voices and elements but argue that those folks are much closer to the heart of the Republican/"conservative" faction than on the center-left, where we can't even sustain an anger-based radio network. Then you counter, I'm guessing, that there's every bit as much rage and actual violence on the left but the liberal media throws a blanket over it or mischaracterizes it, or some such. I'm sure we both have better things to do than actually go through these motions, so I'm happy to take all this as read.


I think I'd answer a little differently, and even track back to your recent post about media bias (our interpretations of what that bias is are almost identical), but I agree neither of us will enlighten the other or change hearts and minds by getting into it.

dajafi wrote:Not to speak for Vox, but he might take issue with my characterization of opposition to marriage rights for same-sex couples as indicating "bigotry, irrationality and fear."


Yes. There have been a few times where you've used terms like "hatred" and "bigotry" (though I don't recall the post phdave used specifically) and I've clicked reply, only to cancel because a) there'd be no point and b) I'd just be uncharitable and glib about it anyway.
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Postby phdave » Sun Mar 28, 2010 20:05:07

VoxOrion wrote:though I don't recall the post phdave used specifically


Do you recall some other post that I could not find? That was pretty much the only post of his I could find where he addressed Prop 8 with more than a passing reference.
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Postby pacino » Sun Mar 28, 2010 20:08:00

there is no legit reason to deny the right to marry to a gay person that does not involve viewing them as lesser than. if one doesnt want it, just be upfront about it.
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Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Mar 28, 2010 22:24:13

Let's get back to team sports type discussions for a minute. I just read an interesting commentary on Nancy Pelosi from The Economist. And here's what you can take away from my reading--Pelosi is damned effective.
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Postby VoxOrion » Mon Mar 29, 2010 06:44:08

Who knew Charlottesville is such a hotbed of unrest?

Presumably retaliation for the gas-line thing, and some context for some old shenanigans.
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Postby Harpua » Mon Mar 29, 2010 07:46:41

Image

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Postby drsmooth » Mon Mar 29, 2010 07:48:05

VoxOrion wrote:Who knew Charlottesville is such a hotbed of unrest?

Presumably retaliation for the gas-line thing, and some context for some old shenanigans.


and rumor is someone pantsed the local Green Party candidate.

As you note about Charlottesville, who knew? If you're the paranoid conspiracy type, it might seem ... too self-explanatory, somehow. The reporter is careful to note that they even used bricks.

So was it actual retaliation, or 'strategic abnegation'...? 8-)
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Postby Woody » Mon Mar 29, 2010 09:22:35

The whole things going shit house
you sure do seem to have a lot of time on your hands to be on this forum? Do you have a job? Are you a shut-in?

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Postby jeff2sf » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:20:20

What a bunch of fucking morons over at philliesphans.com. Has anyone read their politics thread lately? Allentown, jerseyhoya, what the hell do you think you're doing discussing politics with these poorly trained chimps?

Here is a dramatic re-creation of the last several pages:

Allentown: "So the Obama healthcare plan is predicated upon several important factors"

kalasfan: "And then we went to the zoo, and I love the zoo."

I mean would someone just strike down that stupid board from public consciousness? We'll take the 6 people that can type a sentence and think critically.

Still has better minor league info than anything we get here.
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Postby traderdave » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:16:06

TenuredVulture wrote:Let's get back to team sports type discussions for a minute. I just read an interesting commentary on Nancy Pelosi from The Economist. And here's what you can take away from my reading--Pelosi is damned effective.


Was that the March 20th issue, TV?

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Postby traderdave » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:27:39



Man, you really can't get away with saying anything anymore, can you? Let me reiterate my thanks to those of you who have suggested dialing back some of my rhetoric here in the past. When I run for Congress two cycles from now I'd hate to have Back She Goes posts thrown in my face :lol:

Christie certainly has turned NJ on its ear over the past couple of months and as painful as it has been (and will be) I cannot help but thinking that we will all be thanking him in a few years for making these tough choices and taking the heat. In all seriousness, I wonder what Corzine would have done to get us out of this budget problem had he been re-elected?

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Postby phdave » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:58:59

jeff2sf wrote:What a bunch of $#@! morons over at philliesphans.com. Has anyone read their politics thread lately? Allentown, jerseyhoya, what the hell do you think you're doing discussing politics with these poorly trained chimps?

Here is a dramatic re-creation of the last several pages:

Allentown: "So the Obama healthcare plan is predicated upon several important factors"

kalasfan: "And then we went to the zoo, and I love the zoo."

I mean would someone just strike down that stupid board from public consciousness? We'll take the 6 people that can type a sentence and think critically.

Still has better minor league info than anything we get here.


kalasfan wrote:There will never be peace between Israel and Palestine. Even what looks like and passes for peace is not peace. Sefer should know this as well as anyone. The nations of Isaac and Ishmael will always be enemies.


allentown wrote:You cannot conduct 21st century foreign policy based upon biblical history.



kalasfan wrote:We will never see eye-to-eye on this. I believe you can and that believers do and that unbelievers ignore biblical history at their own peril.


Ha ha, that's gold. What the hell were you doing reading several pages of that thread?
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Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:05:14

I may read really pointless threads on dull message boards, but I don't wear shorts or have a facebook account.
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Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:08:56

traderdave wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:Let's get back to team sports type discussions for a minute. I just read an interesting commentary on Nancy Pelosi from The Economist. And here's what you can take away from my reading--Pelosi is damned effective.


Was that the March 20th issue, TV?


Yes. Lexington Column.
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Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:09:46

traderdave wrote:


Man, you really can't get away with saying anything anymore, can you? Let me reiterate my thanks to those of you who have suggested dialing back some of my rhetoric here in the past. When I run for Congress two cycles from now I'd hate to have Back She Goes posts thrown in my face :lol:

Christie certainly has turned NJ on its ear over the past couple of months and as painful as it has been (and will be) I cannot help but thinking that we will all be thanking him in a few years for making these tough choices and taking the heat. In all seriousness, I wonder what Corzine would have done to get us out of this budget problem had he been re-elected?


I see my old friend is behind in the Republican Primary for the 12th district. But that's not a real poll, is it?
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