VoxOrion wrote:In other words, if you getting something cheaper, it's okay - but otherwise it's not?

if you're responding to cshort, I believe he means that some of those early provisions may cause a spike in premium payments for some employers, and contributions for some employees, which are often announced in the fall for 1/1 effective dates, and so will potentially have an impact on voter behavior in November.

My feeling is that's unlikely.

The early implementation provisions he mentions are generally not big cost drivers for group health plans. And the caps on FSAs are not taking effect for another couple of years. Premiums and contributions may rise for 1/1/11, but anyone attributing significant increases to the first provisions taking effect are full of hooey.

Further, there's ample objective data on the impact of changes like removal of pre-existing conditions limits - liberalization of COBRA coverage requirements in recent years all but obliterated them in the employer marketplace anyway - and plenty of people can call bull shit on insurer (or politician) claims that costs are spiking for 1/1/11 plan years.

I was thinking about this recently for some reason, and was under the impression that while there's certainly a lot of overheated vitriol from the right about Obama, he's not as deeply hated in those quarters as Bill Clinton was.

Perhaps not:

A new Harris poll that reveals some shocking things about how Republican voters view President Obama.

Key findings:

67% believe Obama is a socialist.
57% believe Obama is a Muslim.
38% believe Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did."
24% believe Obama "may be the Antichrist."

This makes me think of something I saw on the Bill Moyers show--whichever one he had at the time--a few years ago. Moyers was talking with David Keane, head of the American Conservative Union, and at the end of the interview, he asked if Keane agreed with Ann Coulter that Moyers and people like him were un-American and evil. Keane laughed and said, "No, Bill, you're not un-American. You're just wrong."

I don't quite grasp why for most of us--probably almost all of us at times--it's not possible anymore for some public figure to be merely wrong. They have to be eevil and pose an existential threat to America, freedom and puppies.

I don't like puppies very much. Or children.

Many pages ago on this thread, there was a story about a HCR protest and an opponent so incensed he screamed at a dude with Parkinson's.

Well,he is sorry:

"I snapped. I absolutely snapped and I can't explain it any other way," said Chris Reichert of Victorian Village, in a Dispatch interview.

In his first comments on an incident that went viral across the Internet and was repeatedly played on cable television news shows, Reichert said he is sorry about his confrontation with Robert A. Letcher, 60, of the North Side. Letcher, a former nuclear engineer who suffers from Parkinson's, was verbally attacked as he sat before anti-health care demonstrators in front of Rep. Mary Jo Kilroy's district office last week.

"He's got every right to do what he did and some may say I did too, but what I did was shameful," Reichert said. "I haven't slept since that day."

"I made a donation (to a local Parkinson's disease group) and that starts the healing process."

.....


"That was my first time at any political rally and I'm never going to another one," Reichert said.

"I will never ever, ever go to another one."

It also says he's fearful for his family. Now, I don't know the level of potential threats he's gotten, if at all, but it sounds like the dude's actually remorseful. Maybe this can be a big fuzzy teaching moment for others frothing at the mouth.

Years ago, I bought Stephen Carter's book Civility. Maybe it's time i read it.

I know most people thing good manners and politeness are old fashioned, or worse, repressive.

Look, you are entitled to your opinion. That does not mean it is always a good idea to express that opinion.

So Cantor might not be totally honest about the gunshot that may or may not have been fired (and may or may not have left a bullet hole) at what may or may not have been a campaign office.

I'm not so sure about that.

this is a news article headline and first few sentences on foxnews.com right now

Fidel Castro Applauds Passage of Obama's Health Care Overhaul

Cuban revolutionary leader Fidel Castro on Thursday declared passage of American health care reform "a miracle" and a major victory for Obama's presidency, but couldn't help chide the United States for taking so long to enact what communist Cuba achieved decades ago.

CalvinBall wrote:this is a news article headline and first few sentences on foxnews.com right now

Fidel Castro Applauds Passage of Obama's Health Care Overhaul

Cuban revolutionary leader Fidel Castro on Thursday declared passage of American health care reform "a miracle" and a major victory for Obama's presidency, but couldn't help chide the United States for taking so long to enact what communist Cuba achieved decades ago.

Who the fuck cares what Fidel Castro thinks?

I think Tom Coburn just said we have syphilis.

(Yes I'm watching C-Span 2)

Coburn is about 100x better suited to wage this unemployment/COBRA debate than Bunning.

Also Al Franken is chairing this and I find that hilarious

Harpua wrote:Many pages ago on this thread, there was a story about a HCR protest and an opponent so incensed he screamed at a dude with Parkinson's.

Well,he is sorry:

"I snapped. I absolutely snapped and I can't explain it any other way," said Chris Reichert of Victorian Village, in a Dispatch interview.

In his first comments on an incident that went viral across the Internet and was repeatedly played on cable television news shows, Reichert said he is sorry about his confrontation with Robert A. Letcher, 60, of the North Side. Letcher, a former nuclear engineer who suffers from Parkinson's, was verbally attacked as he sat before anti-health care demonstrators in front of Rep. Mary Jo Kilroy's district office last week.

"He's got every right to do what he did and some may say I did too, but what I did was shameful," Reichert said. "I haven't slept since that day."

"I made a donation (to a local Parkinson's disease group) and that starts the healing process."

.....


"That was my first time at any political rally and I'm never going to another one," Reichert said.

"I will never ever, ever go to another one."

It also says he's fearful for his family. Now, I don't know the level of potential threats he's gotten, if at all, but it sounds like the dude's actually remorseful. Maybe this can be a big fuzzy teaching moment for others frothing at the mouth.

Honestly, what kind of douchenozzle does this to a guy suffering from Parkinson's just because he doesn't conform to his distorted reality. I'm not buying his remorse.

Suspicious package of white powder sent to Anthony Weiner's office, along with a letter complaining about the health care bill.

Politically, I think this is the nail on the head why health care reform is bad for Democrats. People are citing polls like the Gallup poll that had it at 49-40, or even Quinnipiac today which put approve/disapprove at 40-49, and saying it's not so bad. 15-32 on people that feel strongly about it is proper bad.

"From what you've heard or read, do you approve or disapprove of the current health care reform bill?" If approve: "Do you strongly approve or somewhat approve?" If Disapprove: "Do you somewhat disapprove or strongly disapprove?"

Code: Select all

            Strongly Approve Somewhat Approve    Somewhat Disapprove Strongly Disapprove    Unsure
3/22-23          15                 27                     14                 32               12
3/18-21          13                 24                     15                 33               15

Now the fringe needs to stop committing felonies expressing their anger with the bill. Just vote them out of office, you lunatic, self defeating bastards.

And the tea-baggers are going to protest outside the Senate Parliamentarian's house. These people are terrible.

Even though it's lent, because I pretty much finished my taxes I decided to enjoy the cider I made and it's pretty good but pretty strong too because I've had about 6 oz and feeling a buzz but anyway I owe money but I wonder if as people do their taxes they realize that much of the hated stimulus plan will decrease their taxes. The H&R Block software I used showed the way in which the stimulus decreased my taxes pretty dramatically with the new car sales tax deduction, the making work pay credit and the child tax credit. Plus, the fact that I lost a little money in the stock market.

jerseyhoya wrote:Politically, I think this is the nail on the head why health care reform is bad for Democrats. People are citing polls like the Gallup poll that had it at 49-40, or even Quinnipiac today which put approve/disapprove at 40-49, and saying it's not so bad. 15-32 on people that feel strongly about it is proper bad.

"From what you've heard or read, do you approve or disapprove of the current health care reform bill?" If approve: "Do you strongly approve or somewhat approve?" If Disapprove: "Do you somewhat disapprove or strongly disapprove?"

Code: Select all

            Strongly Approve Somewhat Approve    Somewhat Disapprove Strongly Disapprove    Unsure
3/22-23          15                 27                     14                 32               12
3/18-21          13                 24                     15                 33               15

Now the fringe needs to stop committing felonies expressing their anger with the bill. Just vote them out of office, you lunatic, self defeating bastards.

geez, jerz - "from what you've heard or read..."? really? The strong disapprovers "heard" (they can't read) what they heard from a fat man on the radio. That is, what they know about the law they don't actually know, they've just been told to "know".

Almost everyone I know, from any point on the political/philosophical spectrum, who has actually examined the legislation, ranges from "it stinks, but it's not the end of the world" to "it's ok, but far from great". They clearly live on a different planet from the zomboids responding to the poll; a planet I'd prefer to live on.

I scan the WSJ Health Blog once or twice a week; it's absolutely too embarrassing to do any more often, as the reader commentary shows those posting entries are less well informed on the subject than anyone here. And I mean anyone posting in any topic at BSG, not just the politics threads.

Those WSJ posters should literally be ashamed at their own ignorance, given their putative income/education levels. Of course you can guess where the overwhelming majority come down on the measure.

I'm not arguing people should base their opinion of the bill on what the unwashed masses think of it. I'm not arguing representatives did the wrong thing in voting for it because of these numbers. I rather like the Burkean "you elect a dude to vote the right way as he sees it, not how the majority would necessarily vote" bit we discussed a little while back.

I have however read a poll or two before and when more than 2x as many people feel strongly about an issue on one side than the other, it's going to be an effective campaign issue even in districts or states that have majorities supporting the bill. Intensity matters on issues like this.

Sorta like gun control. Most people might favor something like trigger locks or closing the gun show loophole, but the people that actually vote on the issue are on the other side.

kopphanatic wrote:Suspicious package of white powder sent to Anthony Weiner's office, along with a letter complaining about the health care bill.

Seriously? This shit has really gotten out of hand. I saw a story about a gas line being cut at Stupak's brother's house after a Tea Bagger posted his home address online. Freakin' nuts.

I took the time to write you this letter, hopefully you can read it before the anthrax gets you.