Neoconservative Hipster Thinktank: Politics Thread

by **FTN** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 14:26:36

picking Kerry.

see, there's shot to the left foot.

by **dajafi** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 14:52:22

I'd rather have Biden than Kerry. But Kerry has a nasty edge to him that might play well as the VP candidate, and he has some credibility to challenge McCain as a fellow vet and (former?) friend.

by **mpmcgraw** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 14:55:18

my granny thinks kerry is a communist.

by **Woody** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 14:56:11

Obamanationswiftboatbooksales :!:

by **Rococo4** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 15:31:52

dajafi wrote:I'd rather have Biden than Kerry. But Kerry has a nasty edge to him that might play well as the VP candidate, and he has some credibility to challenge McCain as a fellow vet and (former?) friend.

So does Biden.

by **Laexile** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 15:34:05

BuddyGroom wrote:LAExile - after Obama wins the election, I hope you'll be able to admit, at least to yourself, that McCain is an astonishing "flip-flopper" - such an egregious and obvious one, in fact, that I have difficulty coming up with a comparison.

Buddy, you blow me away. Does the world only exist from your POV? No Democrat will admit that Obama has flip-flopped on the issues. I'm amazed that people don't comprehend that the core of Obama's candidacy, "McCain is a Bush third term," is negative campaigning. But I would never tell anyone they have to admit something.

I can't think of an issue that McCain had a long held firm belief in that he suddenly changed for the election. And don't throw out the Bush tax cuts. McCain has voted for tax cuts 73% of the time. He has always been for low taxes. He thought the Bush tax cuts were a bad idea. They generated record revenues, especially from the wealthy. I'd hope that when faced with reality six years later he'd see he was wrong. Off shore drilling? McCain has never been against drilling. He was against off short drilling. But faced with the new reality of high oil prices he's had to come around. If a candidate must hold the same view forever to not be a flip-flopper, then I guess McCain is one.

I'm sure you can argue my points. They are certainly worth discussion. But the idea that McCain is flip-flopping to appeal to conservatives doesn't hold water under close scrutiny. The #1 issue Republicans have with John McCain is immigration. I know this because I've been harassed, yelled at, and cursed at by many Republicans this year over McCain's guest worker program. His stance on this hasn't changed. It may have taken the back burner but if you check his website you'll see the policy that offends so many Republicans. Surely, if he were a flip-flopper he'd abandon this stance. Republicans hate him for it. But think what you want. Don't let facts get in the way.

by **FTN** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 15:41:25

But faced with the new reality of high oil prices he's had to come around. If a candidate must hold the same view forever to not be a flip-flopper, then I guess McCain is one.

So then you'd agree that Kerry wasn't a flip flopper, Clinton was never a flip-flopper, etc etc. Because "flip flopping" is really just coming around on a position, based on new information that has come to light. Correct?

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 15:44:18

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUTn6L0UDU[/youtube]

I get physically aroused from this clip.

by **BuddyGroom** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 16:32:11

Laexile wrote:
BuddyGroom wrote:LAExile - after Obama wins the election, I hope you'll be able to admit, at least to yourself, that McCain is an astonishing "flip-flopper" - such an egregious and obvious one, in fact, that I have difficulty coming up with a comparison.

Buddy, you blow me away. Does the world only exist from your POV? No Democrat will admit that Obama has flip-flopped on the issues. I'm amazed that people don't comprehend that the core of Obama's candidacy, "McCain is a Bush third term," is negative campaigning. But I would never tell anyone they have to admit something.

I can't think of an issue that McCain had a long held firm belief in that he suddenly changed for the election. And don't throw out the Bush tax cuts. McCain has voted for tax cuts 73% of the time. He has always been for low taxes. He thought the Bush tax cuts were a bad idea. They generated record revenues, especially from the wealthy. I'd hope that when faced with reality six years later he'd see he was wrong. Off shore drilling? McCain has never been against drilling. He was against off short drilling. But faced with the new reality of high oil prices he's had to come around. If a candidate must hold the same view forever to not be a flip-flopper, then I guess McCain is one.

I'm sure you can argue my points. They are certainly worth discussion. But the idea that McCain is flip-flopping to appeal to conservatives doesn't hold water under close scrutiny. The #1 issue Republicans have with John McCain is immigration. I know this because I've been harassed, yelled at, and cursed at by many Republicans this year over McCain's guest worker program. His stance on this hasn't changed. It may have taken the back burner but if you check his website you'll see the policy that offends so many Republicans. Surely, if he were a flip-flopper he'd abandon this stance. Republicans hate him for it. But think what you want. Don't let facts get in the way.

First of all, I never said Obama or his campaign don't use negative campaign tactics. Frankly, as someone who wants to win very badly, I'd have trouble supporting a Democrat who wasn't willing to call out his/her opponent on their record, etc. So, I will clarify - calling a McCain win tantamount to a third Bush term is negative campaigning - and a good tactic, I think.

As for McCain and flip-flopping:

1) Torture.

2) He's for respecting the boundaries and authority of sovereign nations, like Georgia. Except when he's not, like Iraq. Except that when it pleases him, he will be critical of the Iraq war, unless he's trying to curry favor with Bush, in which case he won't.

3) He thinks right-wing evangelists are divisive hate-mongers. Except for when he's kissing up to them.

4) He's against the influence of high-paid lobbyists in U.S. politics. Unless, of course, they are working for his campaign. Without lobbyists, I'm not who would be working for McCain.

If you prefer McCain's positions to Obama's, fine. But McCain's political game of Twister since 2000 has been comical, to say the least. He puts the "flip" in flip-flopper. The "flop" will come on the first Tuesday of November.

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:15:08

ON DRUDGE: Paper: Obama May Announce VP In AM

The NYT newsroom was buzzing late Monday afternoon after Obama-beat reporter Jeff Zeleny learned how the Dem hopeful has finalized his choice for a running-mate.

Obama has set out an elaborate roll-out to announce his decision that will begin with an early morning e-mail to supporters, perhaps as early as Tuesday, Zeleny has been told.

Developing... all night long

by **steagles** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:19:40

jerseyhoya wrote:
ON DRUDGE: Paper: Obama May Announce VP In AM

The NYT newsroom was buzzing late Monday afternoon after Obama-beat reporter Jeff Zeleny learned how the Dem hopeful has finalized his choice for a running-mate.

Obama has set out an elaborate roll-out to announce his decision that will begin with an early morning e-mail to supporters, perhaps as early as Tuesday, Zeleny has been told.

Developing... all night long

so, it's definitely reggie bush

unless it's vince young.

or mario williams, maybe.

by **FTN** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:21:34

short list

John Kerry
Evan Bayh
Tim Kaine
Wes Clark
Abe Vigoda
Larry Hagman

by **pacino** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:26:44

you may as well get chuck hagel if you're going to pick evan bayh

by **FTN** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:30:35

BRING ME FEINGOLD

by **Monkeyboy** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:34:56

FTN wrote:short list

John Kerry
Evan Bayh
Tim Kaine
Wes Clark
Abe Vigoda
Larry Hagman

I would add Biden, especially after Obama dispatched him to Georgia, and subtract Bayh. If he picks Bayh, then I will officially be off the Obama bandwagon, though I'll still vote for him over the very dangerous McCain.

by **FTN** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:36:08

if its Biden, I'll probably slit my wrists. Thankfully my vote won't count anyway.

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:40:57

At Intrade, the top three are Biden, Bayh and Kaine, in that order.

Of the three, I'd like to see him pick Kaine. He does nothing on foreign policy, and if Obama wins, then I get to make fun of his dancing eyebrow for four years.

by **dajafi** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:44:23

jerseyhoya wrote:At Intrade, the top three are Biden, Bayh and Kaine, in that order.

Of the three, I'd like to see him pick Kaine. He does nothing on foreign policy, and if Obama wins, then I get to make fun of his dancing eyebrow for four years.

To be fair, you could do that anyway.

Of those three, Biden is my far and away preference. He can do the smackdown side of the job much better than Bayh, who's colorless and deferential almost to the extent Lieberman was in 2000, or Kaine, who just doesn't bring a lot of policy background or gravitas. And Biden would be a good VP on the merits--sort of a non-evil (or, if you're not willing to go there, let's say less ideologically fixated) Cheney.

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:47:31

If Biden didn't have such a propensity to stick his foot in his mouth, I think he would be a slam dunk choice. I still think he's probably the best choice for Obama.

by **FTN** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:50:14

I just hate listening to Biden speak. It makes me nauseous. I actually had the radio on in the rental car I had a few months ago driving home, and they were playing an excerpt of some sub committee hearing he was chairing. And he literally rambled on for 5 minutes thanking the person who was giving testimony. He literally thanked them for 5 minutes and commented how they'd like to have the person back. Then he started to try and make a point, but he'd gotten so far off track he just hit the eject button and basically ended the session. Hes no doubt equipped for the position.

But damn, I don't like him :cry:

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Neoconservative Hipster Thinktank: Politics Thread