Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby dajafi » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:39:06

FTN wrote:whoever made the original comment about "wanting to root for a team good at cheap roster construction" was dead #$!&@ on the money. these guys are soooo concerned with what fangraphs thinks of every move we make, or what the fangraphs monopoly money value of player x's performance was last year, relative to what it might be this year.

my big issue is that people really misuse a lot of the data out there to create faulty, incomplete arguments and then say "but the numbers back me up!!!"

which is why i miss nate silver so much. he understood all the numbers. but he could also synthesize a piece of analysis, and he wrote it in a way that asked just as many questions as it answered. people like dave cameron bastardize Bill James, because they want to be him, but they don't realize his style of writing and analysis is nothing like what they do.

its so easy now to be smarmy and assume you are so much smarter than a typical MLB front office. there are some things I wish the Phillies did a bit better. but their scouting department is second to none. and there are things a scout can see that don't show up in a box score. the numbers matter. the stats matter. but baseball players aren't drones. guys develop at different speeds. some guys piss away their talent because of off the field stuff. and that stuff matters. which is what these guys don't understand. because you can't physically touch something or assign it a value doesn't mean it doesn't have a value. phdave went over this a while back.

if you don't think a player's personal life can impact his on field performance, and that he just might not discuss it, then you're probably a deadeyed drone. everyone's personal life impacts every other area of their life. this #$!&@ happens to everyone.

all of the numbers and "evidence" in the world does you no good if you don't know how to synthesize it and bring it to life. these jerkoffs at fangraphs are creating a whole legion of lemmings who can't think for themselves and stop at the end of the statistical line before figuring out how to apply the numbers and factor in other things that matter. the smugness is too much. its still a #$!&@ game. its still a lot of fun to watch. the best team doesn't always win. the best value signing at the time doesn't always end up the best value signing at the end of the season. its a game of gambles, risks, and unpredictability. no matter how hard you try, you'll never figure it out completely. and thank #$!&@ christ for that, because what fun would it be if we had it all figured out?


I wish I'd written this post. Exactly right: at their worst, these guys have devolved into an indoor version of what they began by fighting against.

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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby jeff2sf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:40:51

I interviewed with Nate Silver. I got a job/internship because of said interview. I adore Nate Silver. You overrate Nate Silver's impact on BP and departure from BP.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby etched Chaos » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:43:39

jeff2sf wrote:No doubt, Calvin.

But let's take the Juan Pierre signing. Objectively, what's the rationale for this signing? What's the rationale for making him the opening day leadoff guy? What's the fun in rooting for a team that makes such a stupid decision? Why do we "deserve" to win when we make that decision when there are 20 other guys that should be starting over him that could have been acquired at the same price?

Now, I know that decision ultimately doesn't matter because A.) Ruben's done work to assemble a great pitching staff and B.) Ruben will paper over any problems caused by Pierre's play. And no, I don't think Pierre's great clubhouse demeanor matters, FTN. If that was the case, Woody could start in left field for us. Who doesn't like Woody?


Please name those 20 players who are better and we could get for a minor league deal with a ST invite? I'll wait.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby dajafi » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:46:06

jeff2sf wrote:FTN, you make some excellent points, but I would rather win in ways that don't involve pulling out my team's collectively massive sized dick, er, payroll, and waving it around.

If all there is to this sport is, well my team's going to spend a crap load of money and yours isn't, then it all seems so very hollow.


But you know that's not how it works. The difference between the Mets/Cubs and the Yankees/Red Sox isn't that the AL teams spend a bit more, it's that they spend well.

And to add one point to Floppy's, luck is a big-time factor too. Given where they drafted and what they spent, no way the Phils could have hoped for what they got from Utley, Howard and Hamels. And without those 2000-2 drafts, no 2007-8 division titles; no payroll surge; no trades for aces; no 102 wins.

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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby CalvinBall » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:46:06

Yea really. If it was some other guy I'm sure we would be complaining about him. Every spot can't be filled with all stars. For the one Juan that te Philles have other teams have three or four of those guys.

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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby Barry Jive » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:46:36

Yeah, the Juan Pierre signing, in isolation, is fine. It was a minor-league deal. As I've said before, I'd sign Tom Seaver to a minor-league deal and I had to google him to make sure he was still alive.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby jeff2sf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:47:22

You serious? You don't think there are literally 50 players who could post a .657 OPS in LEFT FIELD, which understates his terribleness because it doesn't factor in how many times he was thrown out trying to steal.

Dude, it's probably about 30/70 that Brett Cleven, who the Phillies just released because he couldn't make it AS THE FIFTH OUTFIELDER ON OUR AAA TEAM, could post a .657 OPS in the majors

edit: evidently the guy's name is Brent Clevlen. And looking at his stats, I'm gonna revise that down to 15-85. But the point is he got released as a 5th outfielder in AAA. There were options.
Last edited by jeff2sf on Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:03:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby dajafi » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:48:03

Also, Pierre for $800k isn't so bad.

Edit: so long as they cut bait if/when he sucks, which I grant is far from a sure thing.

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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby Barry Jive » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:48:09

Rockinghorse wrote:Do you think this will change if Ross/Freese teams continue to grit out WFCs? Or maybe these dicks don't realize that fans actually care about who gets the trophy?


Winning the World Series is a crapshoot and becomes more of one as MLB tinkers with the postseason. The results there aren't going to change anyone's mind.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby jeff2sf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:49:16

CalvinBall wrote:Yea really. If it was some other guy I'm sure we would be complaining about him. Every spot can't be filled with all stars. For the one Juan that te Philles have other teams have three or four of those guys.


Name one time previous to this I've complained about Juan Pierre. Then again, name one post I've made in the last year about baseball. I would not be complaining about a lot of other guys. Juan Pierre shows a fundamental lack of imagination and about what constitutes quality.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby jeff2sf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:51:57

dajafi wrote:Also, Pierre for $800k isn't so bad.

Edit: so long as they cut bait if/when he sucks, which I grant is far from a sure thing.


No, it's not so bad. But it's also not good. The move doesn't matter. But you know you wouldn't have made that move. It's not a winning move, it offers no upside.

Juan Pierre is so besides the point here, the point is an existential crisis about why being a Phillies fan matters when it seems it's just about throwing money at problems that you helped create. And yes, I want to win with Domonic Brown in left field and not Juan Pierre.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby etched Chaos » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:53:33

jeff2sf wrote:
dajafi wrote:Also, Pierre for $800k isn't so bad.

Edit: so long as they cut bait if/when he sucks, which I grant is far from a sure thing.


No, it's not so bad. But it's also not good. The move doesn't matter. But you know you wouldn't have made that move. It's not a winning move, it offers no upside.

Juan Pierre is so besides the point here, the point is an existential crisis about why being a Phillies fan matters when it seems it's just about throwing money at problems that you helped create. And yes, I want to win with Domonic Brown in left field and not Juan Pierre.


I'm sorry, you're stating the Pierre move as throwing money at a problem!? What a crock of shit, we offered him a minor league deal, that's as far as you can get from throwing money at the problem than you can get. Maybe if Dom could catch we'd not need to take no-risk moves like Pierre.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby Barry Jive » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:53:59

I don't want Juan Pierre starting but it comes down to a choice between throwing Dom Brown to the wolves or having him develop in AAA while you play some mix of Mayberry/Wigginton/Nix/Pierre in LF and at first base. Mayberry's been hitting like shit, so Pierre's getting playing time.

Also, Cholly isn't a strategic manager. I'm thinking his comments and decisions w/r/t Pierre are his way of handling Mayberry right now. For this team to win, Mayberry's going to have to play well. If his machinations now make Mayberry a better player later, it's the right thing to do.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby jeff2sf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 23:56:24

etched Chaos wrote:
jeff2sf wrote:
dajafi wrote:Also, Pierre for $800k isn't so bad.

Edit: so long as they cut bait if/when he sucks, which I grant is far from a sure thing.


No, it's not so bad. But it's also not good. The move doesn't matter. But you know you wouldn't have made that move. It's not a winning move, it offers no upside.

Juan Pierre is so besides the point here, the point is an existential crisis about why being a Phillies fan matters when it seems it's just about throwing money at problems that you helped create. And yes, I want to win with Domonic Brown in left field and not Juan Pierre.


I'm sorry, you're stating the Pierre move as throwing money at a problem!? What a crock of #$!&@, we offered him a minor league deal, that's as far as you can get from throwing money at the problem than you can get. Maybe if Dom could catch we'd not need to take no-risk moves like Pierre.


Um, no etched. I know your British and you must be tired, you're up late. No, Juan Pierre is "the problem you helped create". Throwing money at it is "the guy we trade for in June for all of our prospects because we couldn't find a reasonably decent option in Left field during the offseason".
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby etched Chaos » Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:01:11

jeff2sf wrote:
etched Chaos wrote:
jeff2sf wrote:
dajafi wrote:Also, Pierre for $800k isn't so bad.

Edit: so long as they cut bait if/when he sucks, which I grant is far from a sure thing.


No, it's not so bad. But it's also not good. The move doesn't matter. But you know you wouldn't have made that move. It's not a winning move, it offers no upside.

Juan Pierre is so besides the point here, the point is an existential crisis about why being a Phillies fan matters when it seems it's just about throwing money at problems that you helped create. And yes, I want to win with Domonic Brown in left field and not Juan Pierre.


I'm sorry, you're stating the Pierre move as throwing money at a problem!? What a crock of #$!&@, we offered him a minor league deal, that's as far as you can get from throwing money at the problem than you can get. Maybe if Dom could catch we'd not need to take no-risk moves like Pierre.


Um, no etched. I know your British and you must be tired, you're up late. No, Juan Pierre is "the problem you helped create". Throwing money at it is "the guy we trade for in June for all of our prospects because we couldn't find a reasonably decent option in Left field during the offseason".


It's not a fucking problem, if he stinks we cut him and go with another option. You're acting like we resigned Glue for some exorbitant amount. As for the trade all our prospects rant, the season hasn't even started yet and you've already written off whatever player fills in Lf for the majority of the time. Just because Pierre might be our opening day starter does not mean he'll stay our starter.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby CalvinBall » Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:01:33

They signed Nix and hoped he could platoon with Mayberry. Hasn't worked out yet. I don't know what signing would have helped any more. Willingham? He sucks too and costs way more.

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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby etched Chaos » Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:02:58

I'd like to know this phantom list of players Jeff thinks we could've signed this offseason, for a minor league deal no less.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby Barry Jive » Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:04:27

Willingham doesn't suck, but yeah he would have cost a lot of money.

should of got Cuddyer
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby jeff2sf » Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:06:02

I liked the Nix signing. There is no particularly objective reason that Pierre should be starting over Nix right now. Nix was better last year. Pierre, at the point he made the team, wasn't particularly better in spring training.
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Re: Google+: Phillies Random Thoughts

Postby etched Chaos » Tue Apr 03, 2012 00:06:16

Barry Jive wrote:Willingham doesn't suck, but yeah he would have cost a lot of money.

should of got Cuddyer


I'd hate to think of the shitstorm that would've ensued if we had got Cuddyer for 3/31.
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