JFLNYC wrote:So is Roy just a flash sideways of Cliff?

Look I know all the reasons we don't have both "offiially", just given Blanton and Happ with injuries, Moyer unable to not give up a 5 run inning, and a need for CGs -- just feels weird -- for a franchise with over 125 seasons of play and all of 2 WFC's, maybe better to go for broke and not worry about 2011+ ... just sayin...

milk is spilt anyway

Philly the Kid wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:So is Roy just a flash sideways of Cliff?

Look I know all the reasons we don't have both "offiially", just given Blanton and Happ with injuries, Moyer unable to not give up a 5 run inning, and a need for CGs -- just feels weird -- for a franchise with over 125 seasons of play and all of 2 WFC's, maybe better to go for broke and not worry about 2011+ ... just sayin...

Would keeping Lee have made the Phillies World Series favorites? Maybe. But WS favorites don't win the World Series all the time.

And regardless of the outcome of 2010, that's setting the team up for some lean times going forward, which a team with the most losses in the history of professional sports could do without.

smitty wrote:

phorever wrote:
and let's not forget that the money saved on lee let us sign gload and baez and contreras and castro instead of using mayberry and matheison and valdez and some other aaa reliever.

Also, the below market contract Halladay signed combined with trading Lee's salary combined with all the other moves allowed Amaroi to extend Blanton. That was an important part of this whole process in my view.

you may misunderstand my point. my problem with the deal is that the money saved went into gload, baez, contreras, castro and overpaying for victorino. we could have had all three of halladay and lee and blanton, plus eventual draft picks for lee.

to me, the difference between lee and our fifth starter this year comes out to more value than gillies+ramirez+aumont+(difference between minor league alternates and the veteran big league bench/pen guys). that's figuring in the upside of gillies/ramirez/aumont and their chances of reaching that upside in the near future.

the only thing that changes the equation is if the phillies scouts have reason to believe the propect upside is higher and more likely than the general consensus and they turn out to be right. one of the great unknowns in baseball trade evaluation is the true relative talent of various teams scouts and the true economic value of that difference. it could be the case that the phillies know they have superior scouts and info networks and are leveraging that advantage. having gillick and lamar as consultants does make that more believable in the case of assessing american league talent. but i don't believe it yet... it will take years of tracking traded talent (not just this trade, but others made by the same team) before we know enough to say that the phillies made good trades because they really were relying on superior knowledge rather than luck. till then, i'm treating the prospects as the gambles that prospects are on average, and that keeps the value of what we got in the trade too low to make it worth what we gave up.

if they had used the money to help lock up werth sooner rather than spent it on bench/pen vets and a lesser outfielder, i would feel differently.

So you'd have Werth in CF and, who, Francisco or Mayberry every day in RF, plus three rookies in fairly important bench and bullpen roles, to keep Lee for 2010?

I got a pretty sweet Halladay t-shirt for my birthday yesterday. It's the name/number shirt but it's in this nice charcoal grey color with white name number on back. I hadn't seen these before.

cartersDad26 wrote:I got a pretty sweet Halladay t-shirt for my birthday yesterday. It's the name/number shirt but it's in this nice charcoal grey color with white name number on back. I hadn't seen these before.

A friend has a newborn son. Got him a Doc t-shirt. His wife is a diehard Yankees fan. I told him that if she gets the kid a CC t-shirt, those are good for doo-doo clean-up.

Grotewold wrote:So you'd have Werth in CF and, who, Francisco or Mayberry every day in RF, plus three rookies in fairly important bench and bullpen roles, to keep Lee for 2010?

i would first try to get victorino inked for less.
apparently, i either place a lot less value on bench/pen than do you, or i think that rookies are closer in value to the guys signed than do you.
the basis for my beliefs is projections (e.g. chone, but you can look at them all at fangraphs) that had castro, gload, baez near/at/below replacement and francisco above victorino.

5th outfielder, emergency shortstop, and backup-to-setup relief are not usually considered vital roles. if rollins is out for a long time, castro will regress to his usual horribleness, and over a short time, the difference between even the current lucky castro and bocock/vasquez is not great. dobbs and francisco come off the bench before gload. mayberry looks like an upgrade at the moment. baez has been worse than expected so far. do you really prefer him over matheison?

p.s. sorry for the thread-jack. let's get back to celebrating having the best pitcher in baseball going for the phils every 5 games.

phorever wrote:i would first try to get victorino inked for less.

You don't think Amaro thought of that?

As for the other stuff...whether you like it or, not most/all teams prefer veterans in roles like top lefty off the bench -- given Dobbs' struggles last year -- and 7th-inning reliever (and closer insurance....). I am all for saving money where you can, but there's no way in hell a World Series contender with a bullpen as awful as last year's would entrust a valuable spot to Scott Mathieson at this point. I hope he throws the shit out of the ball and wrestles a spot by October, but they couldn't bank on that in March.

And that's not even getting into post-2010. While far from a sure thing I'd lay good money on the Mariners' prospects helping this team more than those we would have gotten in compensation for Lee. And certainly much sooner.

There is still a (very) remote chance Lee signs with the Phils after this season. . .

it's not gonna happen. just give it up now.

Best you can hope for is getting him in July

Send Dobbs to Seattle with Kerri-Lee Halkert

Barry Jive wrote:it's not gonna happen. just give it up now.

Oh I have no doubt. I just enjoy fanning the embers of hope that reside in some poor soul's breast.

Not that I think the Phils would ever pursue it -- but Lee was pissed to be traded. Why would he even want to come back? I guess, if Seattle was in last place and the Phils loooked like they were en route to a rematch with the Yankees he might be interested to be part of the WS again ... but I don't think he has any further interest in being a Phillies... these guys have egos and they have feelings...

Soren wrote:

can i steal this for fb?

I might have missed it, PtK--how do you know that he was pissed? If he wanted to stay, don't you think he would have made it clear he would be willing to sign an extension? There seems to be reason to believe the Phils did make an offer to extend him.

Now, he might have been pissed because the Phils first offer was in his opinion insultingly low, but I was under the impression he made it pretty clear he would test the free agent market after 2010. I don't fault him for that at all, but then he has no legitimate gripe about how the Phils treated him.

Philly the Kid wrote:Not that I think the Phils would ever pursue it -- but Lee was pissed to be traded. Why would he even want to come back?

$$$

Lee will be a Red Sox.

stevelxa476 wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:Not that I think the Phils would ever pursue it -- but Lee was pissed to be traded. Why would he even want to come back?

$$$

We ain't got enough.

WheelsFellOff wrote:

stevelxa476 wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:Not that I think the Phils would ever pursue it -- but Lee was pissed to be traded. Why would he even want to come back?

$$$

We ain't got enough.

We should have built a bigger stadium. Maybe we can move into the Linc and re-fashion or something for baseball.

td11 wrote:

Soren wrote:ima genius

can i steal this for fb?

yesm