FWIW, there's little to no advertising in the publications in my division. They're circulation-dependent, not ad revenue dependent.

Yeah, but most print is dependent on ads. Once those go out of print, the printers won't be around to publish physical copies of a few specialty journals

Not arguing with you, just telling what's going on in my division. If you have any circulation numbers you can share with me by PM, tomorrow or whenever, I'd really appreciate it.

Have a good evening.

Great topic. Troubling topic.

I think the glory days of newspapers is long gone. The cultural custom of the morning or afternoon paper, is diminished and so much of what the web brings is a positive. More participatory, more total information, news with pictures and videos and faster spread of the word.

But the difference in mediums also create a difference in the way information is absorbed. People for the most part, (and if this board is any indication) have shorter attention spans.

I'm more concerned with the loss of patience and ability to deal with more in-depth reporting discussion and analysis. Not the quick "news bit", and the blurring of news and entertainment. I'm sad that some very talented investigative journalists can no longer make it in the profession. BUt some will re-invent. This stuff happens in a variety of settings not just journalism.

The truth is, that for a long time before the web got to the level it is now, newspapers were not giving me what I needed anyway. Very few columnists who I sought out, and wanted to hear on a regular basis. I had been subscribing to weekly and monthly journals of various kinds for more in-depth and less mainstream views. I used the free dailies for local insights and cultural info. The Sunday pink section was too mainstream and even things like movie recommendations weren't really doing it for me.

I just want smart talented people who do investigative or local journalism and are good writers with a good style or voice to live on in some way. I will always enjoy analog experiences, including holding the paper in my hand. But I can't entirely bemoan the loss of newspapers as they have been less than spectacular for the most part for a long time. Cultural habits are changing and some will be lost in the generational divides sadly....

As long as the superficial doesn't replace the in-depth -- we will all have to morph with the changes under-way.

omg, i didnt read beyond the first sentence there

dajafi wrote:I'm yet to be convinced either way about the correlation between the decline of the print newspaper industry and a dropoff in the quality of journalism. Though maybe it's true that proving such a thing would be impossible anyway.

The correlation is real--the question is which way does the causal arrow go--is it decline in quality causing decline of industry (as is the case in the American auto industry) or is it a decline in the industry necessitating a cutback in quality (as some would say is the case with the airline industry).

The thing is, the quality isn't getting cut: the good writers remain. It's the people that do the jobs that won't be necesarry: printing press, print layout, print sales, etc. The writers will remain the same

TenuredVulture wrote:

dajafi wrote:I'm yet to be convinced either way about the correlation between the decline of the print newspaper industry and a dropoff in the quality of journalism. Though maybe it's true that proving such a thing would be impossible anyway.

The correlation is real--the question is which way does the causal arrow go--is it decline in quality causing decline of industry (as is the case in the American auto industry) or is it a decline in the industry necessitating a cutback in quality (as some would say is the case with the airline industry).

How would you demonstrate that the correlation is real? What's the standard?

Investigative journalism is still going on. Think about all the abuses of power that came to light in 2005-2006. Or the shenanigans around Enron and other bad corporate actors a few years earlier. Good stories still get written. Blogs aren't the end-all be-all of journalism, but they've democratized the medium and probably raised quality at the margins--not least because if someone in the media fucks up, there are a million smartasses out here now to call them on it.

A case could be made that the greater quantity has led to a perceived dilution of quality, but even that strikes me as questionable.

dajafi wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:

dajafi wrote:I'm yet to be convinced either way about the correlation between the decline of the print newspaper industry and a dropoff in the quality of journalism. Though maybe it's true that proving such a thing would be impossible anyway.

The correlation is real--the question is which way does the causal arrow go--is it decline in quality causing decline of industry (as is the case in the American auto industry) or is it a decline in the industry necessitating a cutback in quality (as some would say is the case with the airline industry).

How would you demonstrate that the correlation is real? What's the standard?

Investigative journalism is still going on. Think about all the abuses of power that came to light in 2005-2006. Or the shenanigans around Enron and other bad corporate actors a few years earlier. Good stories still get written. Blogs aren't the end-all be-all of journalism, but they've democratized the medium and probably raised quality at the margins--not least because if someone in the media $#@! up, there are a million smartasses out here now to call them on it.

A case could be made that the greater quantity has led to a perceived dilution of quality, but even that strikes me as questionable.

Here's a partial analogy -- in music. With the advent of powerful home pc's a myriad of affordable or free software and or gadters, there have never been more bedroom musicians. With internet there has never been more outlets for their music. This can be seen by some, as a morass of mediocrity and immitation flooding the market. But to your point about the margins, I think it still allows differentiation ultimately from the real innovators or extra-talented folks and I think in many ways, its a good thing to have lots of hobbyists. If some of blogging is to the bedroom musician a kind of hobby journalism -- and by the way, a bedroom musician might come up with some good stuff too. And a non-professional might write a good piece or be inventive on Yelp or whatever...

Newspapers weren't/aren't just an industry -- they were also a culture. That culture is changing now, and a business and the market has changed. Technology has changed. Information has changed. The world is more crowded, connected and complex. I'm sure great journalism and great investigative work will continue regardless.

And sometimes we as a culture lose something that had merit, but it's not always the end of things. We find new things...

(Yelp? What the hell is Yelp? Bit scary when PtK is more knowledgeable on something in this world than I am...)

The music analogy is a pretty good one, because technology has leveled the "means of production" there too. But while that probably has helped free up artists--I know a lot of bands I loved as a teen that broke up essentially out of frustration with the industry have re-formed, and many of them are thriving--it seems to be hurting workers in the newspaper industry.

Maybe they're more analogous to studio engineers, or record company A&R types, who arguably have seen their roles diminished since anyone can make a pretty good-sounding home recording.

Yelp is just a place for restaurant, venue, and shop reviews with user-generated comments. It's pretty useful, I guess. yelp.com

Houshphandzadeh wrote:Yelp is just a place for restaurant, venue, and shop reviews with user-generated comments. It's pretty useful, I guess. yelp.com

Thanks Housh. I was 90 percent kidding (though I really hadn't heard of it before). Thought maybe it was a new thing like Twitter, which I now sort of understand...

dajafi wrote:(Yelp? What the hell is Yelp? Bit scary when PtK is more knowledgeable on something in this world than I am...)

The music analogy is a pretty good one, because technology has leveled the "means of production" there too. But while that probably has helped free up artists--I know a lot of bands I loved as a teen that broke up essentially out of frustration with the industry have re-formed, and many of them are thriving--it seems to be hurting workers in the newspaper industry.

Maybe they're more analogous to studio engineers, or record company A&R types, who arguably have seen their roles diminished since anyone can make a pretty good-sounding home recording.

I was more pointing to the fact that there is less specialization. At one time, electronic music was the province only of academia, academia is no longer the hotbed of innovation. IN olden times a person could be a farmer, musician, alchemist, and town leader. Today, you are either a musician, a politician, a famrer etc... so one point I'm trying to make, is that I think its generally a good thing for people to read, write and think, and participate even without traning and even if we end up with a lot of sub-standard stuff.

As far as the industry itself, music is changing too. Those companies being in entertainment and there is the entire publishing rights side of the business, is still sorting itself out.

Telecom too, no longer does one phone utility control all our destinies.

Newspapers will exist on, for a time, perhaps our lifetime. And my main hope is that quality journalism will thrive, in the info-tainment, technology era -- even if the days of the Hearst empires goes the way of the doe-doe.

Just thought I'd update this thread. This is layoff week at the Courier-Post, News Journal in Wilmington and Times Journal in Vineland, NJ, along with all the other Gannett newspapers. Rumor has it that managers are calling people tonight informing them of the layoffs. Every time the phone rings here, we get really nervous. USA Today, Gannett's flagship, has already cut 45 newsroom jobs.

As a tree, I approve

GrizzledVeteran wrote:Just thought I'd update this thread. This is layoff week at the Courier-Post, News Journal in Wilmington and Times Journal in Vineland, NJ, along with all the other Gannett newspapers. Rumor has it that managers are calling people tonight informing them of the layoffs. Every time the phone rings here, we get really nervous. USA Today, Gannett's flagship, has already cut 45 newsroom jobs.

You still have a job, I hope.

Yes I do still have a job. I bailed from the Courier-Post eight years ago.

GrizzledVeteran wrote:Yes I do still have a job. I bailed from the Courier-Post eight years ago.

Yeh, I thought you worked downtown, but I thought your post meant you were nervous for your job. In any case, good news -- for you, anyway.

I think Mrs. Grizzled might still work there?? Is her job safe?

Bucky wrote:I think Mrs. Grizzled might still work there?? Is her job safe?

That's what we're waiting to find out. Nobody seems to know for sure when the word will come down.