TenuredVulture wrote:Chevy is better than it was, and Toyota has had some problems recently. As far as I know, Hondas are still quite good, and I've had two Mazdas and liked them very much. My Malibu is closing in on 80k and 6 years old. While it's had no major problems, there gas gauge doesn't work anymore, and that's an annoyance. Used is supposed to be a better deal than new, but there's probably more risk involved.

But what are looking to do with your car--simply get from point a to point b? Impress women? Haul shit?

TenuredVulture wrote:Also, is December a good or bad time of year to buy a car, or are you better off waiting a couple of months?

Ramon Gris wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Chevy is better than it was, and Toyota has had some problems recently. As far as I know, Hondas are still quite good, and I've had two Mazdas and liked them very much. My Malibu is closing in on 80k and 6 years old. While it's had no major problems, there gas gauge doesn't work anymore, and that's an annoyance. Used is supposed to be a better deal than new, but there's probably more risk involved.

But what are looking to do with your car--simply get from point a to point b? Impress women? Haul shit?

I barely drive, to be honest. I live about a mile and a half from where I work. What I want now is a car that I can pay off over a couple years and keep it for a long long time. I need something that is comfortable for long drives, like when I want to drive home for christmas or whatever. I like that crosstour a lot, if I can afford it. I don't need to haul much of anything (the bed of my pickup truck basically amounts to a trash can if I park downtown), but don't want a compact car. So basically just looking for point a to point b, and I don't want it to embarrass me in front of women.

TenuredVulture wrote:

Ramon Gris wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Chevy is better than it was, and Toyota has had some problems recently. As far as I know, Hondas are still quite good, and I've had two Mazdas and liked them very much. My Malibu is closing in on 80k and 6 years old. While it's had no major problems, there gas gauge doesn't work anymore, and that's an annoyance. Used is supposed to be a better deal than new, but there's probably more risk involved.

But what are looking to do with your car--simply get from point a to point b? Impress women? Haul shit?

I barely drive, to be honest. I live about a mile and a half from where I work. What I want now is a car that I can pay off over a couple years and keep it for a long long time. I need something that is comfortable for long drives, like when I want to drive home for christmas or whatever. I like that crosstour a lot, if I can afford it. I don't need to haul much of anything (the bed of my pickup truck basically amounts to a trash can if I park downtown), but don't want a compact car. So basically just looking for point a to point b, and I don't want it to embarrass me in front of women.

I'd look for a used sub-compact--Mazda 3, Honda Civic. I'd even consider a used bucket of bolts like the Chevy Cobalt, which you could probably get for 5 grand. You don't outrageous reliability--if your car breaks down, you can still get to work. But from a financial perspective, you might be better off running your current car into the ground while you make car payments to yourself so you can make your next purchase a cash transaction.

TenuredVulture wrote:Also, is December a good or bad time of year to buy a car, or are you better off waiting a couple of months?

TenuredVulture wrote:Also, is December a good or bad time of year to buy a car, or are you better off waiting a couple of months?

jerseyhoya wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Also, is December a good or bad time of year to buy a car, or are you better off waiting a couple of months?

My dad worked for a car dealership a couple of years ago, and I don't know about time of year, but his advice was to go into dealerships in the last few days of a month when salespeople and managers are looking to hit monthly quotas. Your ability to haggle them down both on new and used cars can be pretty huge at that point, though I suppose that varies dealership to dealership. I got a Hyundai Sonata used at the end of last August. It was listed at the dealer for $9900 and I got it for $8100, and I've had no complaints with it 15 months in.

The Crimson Cyclone wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Also, is December a good or bad time of year to buy a car, or are you better off waiting a couple of months?

My dad worked for a car dealership a couple of years ago, and I don't know about time of year, but his advice was to go into dealerships in the last few days of a month when salespeople and managers are looking to hit monthly quotas. Your ability to haggle them down both on new and used cars can be pretty huge at that point, though I suppose that varies dealership to dealership. I got a Hyundai Sonata used at the end of last August. It was listed at the dealer for $9900 and I got it for $8100, and I've had no complaints with it 15 months in.

some truth to that but in all honesty most sales people/managers don't want you to walk out the door, and will often pull out the best price as soon as you are ready to walk- but with new cars these days everyone knows the invoice price so it's more haggling over the trade in (or a used car)

1. General tips:
a. Person who mentions price first, loses
b. Anchoring can sometimes help, if the first bid is competitive/realistic. It frames the negotiation in a certain range
c. Don’t be, or appear to be, in a hurry. “Need to buy a car today?”
d. Eat before negotiating.
e. Realize the other side knows it’s a game. Feel free to take risks.
2. Be informed…
a. Know dealer invoices, shop around beforehand, and familiarize yourself with the process. It could save you thousands.
b. Know the Kelley blue book values of all relevant cars
c. Visit Edmunds.com for help.
d. Contact various dealers in the area.
3. Lack of authority…
a. You will first negotiate with a salesman, but he does not have the final say. The manager can and will nullify questionable deals, add costs, etc.
b. You can employ the same tactic. Bring a partner (spouse, parent, savvy friend) to step in when you are getting the short end of the stick.
4. Negotiate one variable at a time…
a. A dealer can profit from any stage of the negotiation (car price, financing, extras, trade-in). Do not fall victim to “How much can you afford per month?” They will place you into an unfavorable financing deal, despite giving you a good price on the car.
b. Discuss trade-in last, and be prepared to sell your trade-in elsewhere
c. Financing is where dealers often make money, so if you need financing, get it done beforehand, but don’t let the dealer know you won’t be financing with them.
d. They will try to stick you with extra costs after agreeing on price. It is necessary to use your partner here to prevent this.
5. Be prepared to walk out if you feel you are being ripped off. They are deathly afraid of a sale walking out the door.
a. If they don’t chase you out, they either think you are not a real buyer (ie. Just a kid looking to test-drive some cars) or are giving you close to the best deal they can.
b. Evaluate deal at home, without the pressure.

• Undercoating - Given today's manufacturing techniques, rust-through is a very rare problem. Furthermore, most manufacturers have 5-7 year warranties against rust and corrosion. Undercoating is something you almost never need and could in some cases even damage the car.
• Scotchguarding ("Interior Protection Package") - If you feel you need to Scotchguard the fabric in your car, buy a can for a few dollars and do it yourself.
• Paint Sealant - Again, today's manufacturing techniques make this an option that you don't need.
• Dealer Preparation Charges - Never pay anything for dealer preparation. In fact, in most cases, the factory pays the dealer a specific sum for the cost of prepping the car and putting gas in it.
• VIN Etching - Supposedly making it easier to recover the car if it is stolen.
• Window Tinting - If you really want this, you can get it much cheaper from a third party after you buy the car.
• Pin-Stripping ("Appearance Package") - Again, if you really want this, you can get it much cheaper from a third party after you buy the car.
• Alarm System - Many cars come with an alarm system already installed. Dealers sometimes even disconnect the factory systems to install their own. If the car does not come with an alarm system and you want one, you can get it much cheaper from a third party after you buy the car.
Occasionally dealers will actually install some of these items when the car arrives on the lot. They then put a "supplemental sticker" ("rip-off sticker") on the car and insist that you have to pay for the extra items. I would stay away from any car that has a "supplemental sticker," and I would not do business with any dealer that puts them on all their cars. If you absolutely have to have a car with a "supplemental sticker", maybe because it is a color you have not been able find anywhere else, try to find out what the items would cost in the after market and then pay the dealer no more than 50% of that. That way the dealer will probably just get their costs back. And no, they do not deserve any profit an these items since you do not want them and dealer is forcing them on you.
• Extended Warranties. An extended warranty is insurance. The question is, do you need to pay for this kind of insurance? We generally buy insurance for risks that we cannot tolerate. We will buy collision insurance in case we have a bad accident, but we will accept a $500 deductible because we can tolerate the risk of a $500 expenditure. Are auto repairs, once the car comes off of warranty, an expense you feel you cannot tolerate? If you feel you absolutely must have an extended warranty, make sure that it is a factory-backed warranty and not a third-party warranty. Unfortunately, there have been some horror stories about third-party warranty companies going bankrupt, leaving customers holding the bag. Also, remember that the price of the warranty is negotiable like anything else.
• Gap Protection - This is insurance on top of insurance. The idea is that if your car was totaled or stolen, you might owe more on it than the car was worth and therefore more than your insurance company will give you. This insurance covers the gap between the two. Dealers will show you calculations indicating a very high gap. This is usually nonsense. To find the real gap use the Bankrate.com loan payment calculator which will show you your monthly payment and, if you click on the "Show Amortization Table" button, will give you a complete monthly calendar of payments that will show you for any given month how much principle you have paid, how much interest you have paid, and how much remains outstanding on your loan. Look at the remaining balance at the end of one, two and three years and then go to Kelley and look up the "Retail Value" (which is what most insurance companies will pay) on older models for the car you have purchased. This will give you a ballpark idea of the gap, if any.

Werthless wrote:General Business Negotiation Tips
Edmunds Car-Buying Tips
Confessions of a Car Salesman (Fun read)

General tips (I wrote this up last year for something else):

1. General tips:
a. Person who mentions price first, loses
b. Anchoring can sometimes help, if the first bid is competitive/realistic. It frames the negotiation in a certain range
c. Don’t be, or appear to be, in a hurry. “Need to buy a car today?”
d. Eat before negotiating.
e. Realize the other side knows it’s a game. Feel free to take risks.
2. Be informed…
a. Know dealer invoices, shop around beforehand, and familiarize yourself with the process. It could save you thousands.
b. Know the Kelley blue book values of all relevant cars
c. Visit Edmunds.com for help.
d. Contact various dealers in the area.
3. Lack of authority…
a. You will first negotiate with a salesman, but he does not have the final say. The manager can and will nullify questionable deals, add costs, etc.
b. You can employ the same tactic. Bring a partner (spouse, parent, savvy friend) to step in when you are getting the short end of the stick.
4. Negotiate one variable at a time…
a. A dealer can profit from any stage of the negotiation (car price, financing, extras, trade-in). Do not fall victim to “How much can you afford per month?” They will place you into an unfavorable financing deal, despite giving you a good price on the car.
b. Discuss trade-in last, and be prepared to sell your trade-in elsewhere
c. Financing is where dealers often make money, so if you need financing, get it done beforehand, but don’t let the dealer know you won’t be financing with them.
d. They will try to stick you with extra costs after agreeing on price. It is necessary to use your partner here to prevent this.
5. Be prepared to walk out if you feel you are being ripped off. They are deathly afraid of a sale walking out the door.
a. If they don’t chase you out, they either think you are not a real buyer (ie. Just a kid looking to test-drive some cars) or are giving you close to the best deal they can.
b. Evaluate deal at home, without the pressure.

Add-ons you should not buy. (I did not write these, but got suckered into GAP insurance)

• Undercoating - Given today's manufacturing techniques, rust-through is a very rare problem. Furthermore, most manufacturers have 5-7 year warranties against rust and corrosion. Undercoating is something you almost never need and could in some cases even damage the car.
• Scotchguarding ("Interior Protection Package") - If you feel you need to Scotchguard the fabric in your car, buy a can for a few dollars and do it yourself.
• Paint Sealant - Again, today's manufacturing techniques make this an option that you don't need.
• Dealer Preparation Charges - Never pay anything for dealer preparation. In fact, in most cases, the factory pays the dealer a specific sum for the cost of prepping the car and putting gas in it.
• VIN Etching - Supposedly making it easier to recover the car if it is stolen.
• Window Tinting - If you really want this, you can get it much cheaper from a third party after you buy the car.
• Pin-Stripping ("Appearance Package") - Again, if you really want this, you can get it much cheaper from a third party after you buy the car.
• Alarm System - Many cars come with an alarm system already installed. Dealers sometimes even disconnect the factory systems to install their own. If the car does not come with an alarm system and you want one, you can get it much cheaper from a third party after you buy the car.
Occasionally dealers will actually install some of these items when the car arrives on the lot. They then put a "supplemental sticker" ("rip-off sticker") on the car and insist that you have to pay for the extra items. I would stay away from any car that has a "supplemental sticker," and I would not do business with any dealer that puts them on all their cars. If you absolutely have to have a car with a "supplemental sticker", maybe because it is a color you have not been able find anywhere else, try to find out what the items would cost in the after market and then pay the dealer no more than 50% of that. That way the dealer will probably just get their costs back. And no, they do not deserve any profit an these items since you do not want them and dealer is forcing them on you.
• Extended Warranties. An extended warranty is insurance. The question is, do you need to pay for this kind of insurance? We generally buy insurance for risks that we cannot tolerate. We will buy collision insurance in case we have a bad accident, but we will accept a $500 deductible because we can tolerate the risk of a $500 expenditure. Are auto repairs, once the car comes off of warranty, an expense you feel you cannot tolerate? If you feel you absolutely must have an extended warranty, make sure that it is a factory-backed warranty and not a third-party warranty. Unfortunately, there have been some horror stories about third-party warranty companies going bankrupt, leaving customers holding the bag. Also, remember that the price of the warranty is negotiable like anything else.
• Gap Protection - This is insurance on top of insurance. The idea is that if your car was totaled or stolen, you might owe more on it than the car was worth and therefore more than your insurance company will give you. This insurance covers the gap between the two. Dealers will show you calculations indicating a very high gap. This is usually nonsense. To find the real gap use the Bankrate.com loan payment calculator which will show you your monthly payment and, if you click on the "Show Amortization Table" button, will give you a complete monthly calendar of payments that will show you for any given month how much principle you have paid, how much interest you have paid, and how much remains outstanding on your loan. Look at the remaining balance at the end of one, two and three years and then go to Kelley and look up the "Retail Value" (which is what most insurance companies will pay) on older models for the car you have purchased. This will give you a ballpark idea of the gap, if any.

jerseyhoya wrote:What do vanity plates do to a car's value?

Ramon Gris wrote:

The Crimson Cyclone wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Also, is December a good or bad time of year to buy a car, or are you better off waiting a couple of months?

My dad worked for a car dealership a couple of years ago, and I don't know about time of year, but his advice was to go into dealerships in the last few days of a month when salespeople and managers are looking to hit monthly quotas. Your ability to haggle them down both on new and used cars can be pretty huge at that point, though I suppose that varies dealership to dealership. I got a Hyundai Sonata used at the end of last August. It was listed at the dealer for $9900 and I got it for $8100, and I've had no complaints with it 15 months in.

some truth to that but in all honesty most sales people/managers don't want you to walk out the door, and will often pull out the best price as soon as you are ready to walk- but with new cars these days everyone knows the invoice price so it's more haggling over the trade in (or a used car)

Where will I find the invoice price?

jamiethekiller wrote:i know for used credit unions are the best place to go for financing.

new, i'm not so sure