Philly the Kid wrote:It seems these artists are all liked by the same fans for the most part. I've never gotten it with them and some others that overlap this realm? I know they have big reputations and substantial followers. I've never "got it" off these artists?? It never swings for me. There always is a kind of tether to a rock-aesthetic from the 70's - a kind of jam-band element -- and the beats are often post-70's-fusion --

dunno Kid - in at least 2 of the MMW selections FTN has provided, I'm hearing Jimmie Smith or Big John Patton way more than post-70s fusion (which I probably wouldn't recognize)

Stanley Jordan is my favorite guy from the jazz world, but I have no idea what the purists think of him

About once a month, Marc Myers comes up with something I really enjoy. Here's this month's winnah: Ginza Samba - Getz, with Cal Tjader, Scott LaFaro, Billy Higgins, some guy named Guaraldi on piano (and keeping up nicely), and a fellow named Duran on guitar whom I had not heard of:




Recorded during Getz's brief intermission between bop and bossa phases - works like coffee & chocolate

Philly the Kid wrote:FTN -- and I'm putting this out there sincerely -- what is it about the

Zorn, Frissel, MMW -- thing that you like so much? It seems these artists are all liked by the same fans for the most part. I've never gotten it with them and some others that overlap this realm? I know they have big reputations and substantial followers. I've never "got it" off these artists?? It never swings for me. There always is a kind of tether to a rock-aesthetic from the 70's - a kind of jam-band element -- and the beats are often post-70's-fusion --

If you have an alternate description of the style/aesthetic, and or if those are or aren't the very reasons you dig this -- I"d be curious to get your take on it?

Of all the composers and sax players out there, I don't think I'd ever turn to John Zorn for originals or solos... so either I'm just not getting it, or I'm getting it but its not my bag??

Explain to me how this song below is derivative of anything. Zorn, in context, produces some of the most original music out there. Hes more prolific, and has touched more genres of music, than just about anyone else in music. His playing style is fairly original, but he considers himself a composer more than a sax player. Hes written more music in the last 10 years than most serious musicians will write in a lifetime. I like MMW because they play improvisational jazz, and all 3 are incredible musicians.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8aN6QF3L5s[/youtube]

edit, maybe the youtube tag is broken. you can open it and watch it.

flops, mrs vox told me how - clip just that portion of the youtube url to the right of "v=", and enclose that bit in the youtube tags.

like so:

Why do I love MMW?


here are 6 reasons













and one more for good measure. billy martin is awesome.

Billy Martin is an incredible drummer. Saw them live a number of times, right near his side of the stage. He's the smoothest player I've ever seen. Completely in time, perfect sense of space and rhythm, no ego at all.


one more.

FTN wrote:bunch of stuff about MMW

I listened/watched 4 of your reasons and don't feel any diff than I always have since a friend back in Phila. tried to convince me these guys were amazing 10 years ago...

This music just isn't my bag for the most part. It's roots don't feel in Jazz at all and it's a bit of a stretch to call it "Jazz", though the definition for "Jazz" has expanded in the last 30 years. There is a lot of "jamming" kind of elements, and some improvisatory -- non-traditional improv - a higher degree of technical facility than the average rocker -- but the aesthetic for me is closer to - or as much of -- a part of a post-rock jamming vibe, than any Jazz vibe. It's not acoustic -- the electric solid body bass already moves it in a certain direction.

And I can see why a fan of this genre/band, would also like Zorn and Frissel. I get it. You aren't the first person I've known of who likes this side of things.

I find a lot of this leaving me cold... it's not especially soulful ... very noodle-around-y - long vamps over pedal-tones ... yes, a bit of cacophony and noise thrown in to make it more avante garde-ish at times... (like Zorn) but just don't get anything out of it that moves me. This is totally my subjective reaction. I'm not trying to make a de facto claim about their skill or worthiness. Just not music I would seek out, or pay a ticket for, nor list in a Jazz thread.

You do know they've done entire tours of all acoustic stuff, with Medeski on piano and Wood on upright bass, playing lot of jazz standards, right? All 3 guys are classically trained jazz musicians.

And MMW is really nothing like Zorn at all. And I'm not sure why you keep lumping Frisell in with this group. He's played lots of straight jazz and country, and his tone/technique is pretty non-standard.

FTN wrote:You do know they've done entire tours of all acoustic stuff, with Medeski on piano and Wood on upright bass, playing lot of jazz standards, right? All 3 guys are classically trained jazz musicians.

And MMW is really nothing like Zorn at all. And I'm not sure why you keep lumping Frisell in with this group. He's played lots of straight jazz and country, and his tone/technique is pretty non-standard.

I lump them together because as a body of work, they overlap in places and leave me with the same result, but mostly because the people that seem to like one, like the others. There is clearly something that connects certain musicians and you can find those threads sometimes not in the music but in the fans drawn to the music. Yes, I'm well aware MMW are skilled musicians who can play more traditional Jazz, but I've never heard a track from them that made me want to write it down and make a note to look for that on iTunes or at Amoeba.

It's ok man. You dig em! I dig that people dig music. Are passionate.

I notice you reference John Coltrane a lot, (wasn't he your # 1 pick in the draft?) and I just find Coltrane a million miles from some of the artists you also seem to favor very much. I'm always trying to understand where someone's "ears" and head is at with their musical tastest.

It's a feel and sensibility thing sometimes.

As a guy deeply steeped in avante garde music and composition, I've never found John Zorn's work, and/or much of Zappa's work - that compelling. I think they were proflific and passionate, MANY people I went to music/art school with, were super in to those guys... I just have had a hard time finding an access point. We all can't relate to everyone and everything. I've watched a lot of Zappa videos on YouTube, especially interviews -- he leaves me cold. I know he studied a lot of the same stuff I did, and took his composition very seriously, I luv his stuff on Steve Allen show with the bicycle ... but there are just so many other composers that I'd turn to first for that more experimental and contemporary classical, and then as a "jamming musician", I just don't relate to any aspects of the "rocker" aesthetic or culture, particularly in hybrid-form.

Of all the jazz guitarists and jazz-influence guitarists, I just haven't found a track of Frissel that made me go -- "wow" ... and I luv guitar and jazz guitar. I never close my mind. When you post stuff, I almost always check it out, and you have posted some strong tracks that I did enjoy - didn't you post the Kurt Rosenwinkel at the radio station? That was fantastic!

I like Coltrane because he sounds good to my ear. Its the same reason I like Miles Davis, Marc Ribot, Electric Masada, MMW, Television, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots, ELO, Mozart, Pavement, Led Zeppelin, Beethoven, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Soundgarden, Zappa, and the 5000 other bands/artists/performers I like. I'm sorry you don't "love" the MMW stuff I posted. You asked me why I loved them. Ask me why I hate mayonnaise. If it goes against your ethos, then you can tell me you don't understand, or it doesn't make sense, or something of the sort. I listen to music from every genre out there. Some of it I like more than others. Some genres I like very little, some I like almost everything I've heard. Its music. Its life. Its how things go.

Philly the Kid wrote:

FTN wrote:bunch of stuff about MMW

I listened/watched 4 of your reasons and don't feel any diff than I always have since a friend back in Phila. tried to convince me these guys were amazing 10 years ago...

This music just isn't my bag for the most part. It's roots don't feel in Jazz at all and it's a bit of a stretch to call it "Jazz", though the definition for "Jazz" has expanded in the last 30 years. There is a lot of "jamming" kind of elements, and some improvisatory -- non-traditional improv - a higher degree of technical facility than the average rocker -- but the aesthetic for me is closer to - or as much of -- a part of a post-rock jamming vibe, than any Jazz vibe. It's not acoustic -- the electric solid body bass already moves it in a certain direction.

And I can see why a fan of this genre/band, would also like Zorn and Frissel. I get it. You aren't the first person I've known of who likes this side of things.

I find a lot of this leaving me cold... it's not especially soulful ... very noodle-around-y - long vamps over pedal-tones ... yes, a bit of cacophony and noise thrown in to make it more avante garde-ish at times... (like Zorn) but just don't get anything out of it that moves me. This is totally my subjective reaction. I'm not trying to make a de facto claim about their skill or worthiness. Just not music I would seek out, or pay a ticket for, nor list in a Jazz thread.

Kid, if your post were tissue paper I might wipe my ass with it.

But this is totally my subjective reaction.

My default is to assume you mean well, but when you serve a shit sandwich you should offer a beer to wash it down with

acoustic MMW that pales in comparison to the music the Kid enjoys



not sure if I posted this one before

really see absolutely nothing wrong with anything PtK said, except spelling love "luv"

drsmooth wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:

FTN wrote:bunch of stuff about MMW

I listened/watched 4 of your reasons and don't feel any diff than I always have since a friend back in Phila. tried to convince me these guys were amazing 10 years ago...

This music just isn't my bag for the most part. It's roots don't feel in Jazz at all and it's a bit of a stretch to call it "Jazz", though the definition for "Jazz" has expanded in the last 30 years. There is a lot of "jamming" kind of elements, and some improvisatory -- non-traditional improv - a higher degree of technical facility than the average rocker -- but the aesthetic for me is closer to - or as much of -- a part of a post-rock jamming vibe, than any Jazz vibe. It's not acoustic -- the electric solid body bass already moves it in a certain direction.

And I can see why a fan of this genre/band, would also like Zorn and Frissel. I get it. You aren't the first person I've known of who likes this side of things.

I find a lot of this leaving me cold... it's not especially soulful ... very noodle-around-y - long vamps over pedal-tones ... yes, a bit of cacophony and noise thrown in to make it more avante garde-ish at times... (like Zorn) but just don't get anything out of it that moves me. This is totally my subjective reaction. I'm not trying to make a de facto claim about their skill or worthiness. Just not music I would seek out, or pay a ticket for, nor list in a Jazz thread.

Kid, if your post were tissue paper I might wipe my ass with it.

But this is totally my subjective reaction.

My default is to assume you mean well, but when you serve a $#@! sandwich you should offer a beer to wash it down with

I try to mean well - but it's tiring often around here. I expressed my opinion. As a composer -- John Zorn and Frank Zappa are not doing it for me. As a guitarist with some jazz leanings, Bill Frissel isn't doing it for me. And Medeski Martin and Wood are not in my top 50 Jazz trios to seek out. I can try to explain it better but why bother, since we'll just fall to a bunch of "I like what I like talk..." and I've had enough of that useless -- so Unsmooth Doctor, wipe your hindquarters with this piece of recycled coarse wood!

FTN wrote:acoustic MMW that pales in comparison to the music the Kid enjoys

Best part of this track are the hotties dancin all hippie style to it -- showing some skin ... I find the piano playing heavy unlyrical and harmonically uninteresting -- again -- this approach to jazz is closer to bluesy-jammy stuff that I think appeals to someone who comes to Jazz from a rock-orientation. That's been my experience.

This is like some of the other examples, a long noodly vamp over a pedal point -- it isn't 'swingin' for me in the slightest. It's closer to a honky tonk feel almost than a real clean jazz groove. It has its place. It's got energy and I can see people who frequent blues bars accessing this moreso than some jazz that is too sophisticated for their ears.

On the "to each his own" front -- bravo man. Dig what you dig. As an example to destabilize my perception, this just added to what I already was responding too. When I have time -- I'll post some Jazz trio configurations that I find much more interesting and worthy of exploration.

There are two ways people can approach talking about arts. You can stick to the "I just like what I like" which doesn't allow for any critical discussion and people not projecting their ego in to things. Which in baseball parlance for you SABR-heads -- is the aesthetics equivalent of "I know what I see" or "I watch the games" or "I know he's cluth/gritty/got intangibles" -- OR -- you can try to have a more objective discourse without people feeling defensive and talk about art with some modicum of objectivity. It requires a bit of a common language or at least a willingness to try to form one.

I've used simple analogies befoe like "wine". A guy who has studied wine his whole life and can tell you what slope of Farmer brown's hillside the grapes came from, and that it was two years ago when the rainfall was low -- tryign to talk to a guy who has been in a wine club for 10 years vs someone who has just started studying wine last summer, vs a guy who just drinks it at a party vs a guy who thinks 2buck chuck is good swill -- it's hard to have dialog if people are at different stages of their evolution and not willing to try to build language. Be willing to try to understand other things that they haven't thought about or considered or compared to.

I don't know FTN's or Dr Smooth's history with music consumption. I know they are both very cerebral intelligent people with strong views and a passion for music. Both seem to have a fondness for Jazz in some form. That's all great. that makes us the 3 people in this tread most active. And we all have our own tastes and preferences.

I never said that any of the artists listed are "sh**", I believe I referred to MMW for instance as "skilled" and they are, they just don't represent anything cutting edge, innovative, fresh, or exciting for me with regards to my interests in jazz. I haven't found a YouTUbe of theirs I've saved to my favorites list... I've tried to not come off too snobby or technical in trying to explain it. But that has failed.

So let's just leave it back in the we all like what we like -- and I won't comment or question anybody about their tastes.

Here's a question--among the stuff I like are the more accessible stuff that people like Ornette Coleman, Don Byron, Lester Bowie, and William Parker made. I'm sure there are younger guys doing similar stuff, but most jazz stations don't play much of that music. What else is out there along those lines? It seems on listening to this music there's been some interesting back and forth among several different kinds of musics and some are really expanding their musical vocabulary. But other than my own collection, it's tough to keep up on what's really happening out there. Honestly, it sounds to me like some of what was going on in say the fifties, when vocalists like Sinatra and Torme would record with jazz musicians thus expanding both audiences. This worked in part I think because there were really great songs.

Don Byron is nonpareil, but there are many younger players doing remarkable stuff. FTN's mentioned some upthread, as has the Kid. If I were making up a short list, I'd include Jason Moran, Vijay Iyer, and Ari Hoenig (here taking on Anthropology with Jean-Michel Pilc and Francois Mouton):



more accessible still, astonishing in their own way, are the Cohen siblings, Anat and Avishai. Anat Cohen is among the sexiest performers I've enjoyed live in any genre. Not shakira sexy, full-on woman-exuding-"woman-ness" sexy.