For some reason, former congressweasel Joe Walsh was on one of MSNBC's late afternoon segments today, insisting a more formal profiling program be put in place to pick up on people like the two "obviously islamic radical" Boston bombers, as if he knows much more about them than their names.

Not really too surprising I guess that he's still an asshole

pacino wrote:I believe that any real comprehensive immigration reform must implement strong national security protections. The facts emerging in the Boston Marathon bombing have exposed a weakness in our current system. If we don't use this debate as an opportunity to fix flaws in our current system, flaws made even more evident last week, then we will not be doing our jobs.

And yet Rand Paul voted no on background checks for gun buyers.

Gun buyers aren't muslim terrorists!!!

The one that gets me is McCain. That guy should know that being held without due process and rights is just wrong. I guess since he folded under torture (as I would have), he thinks everyone else will.

I don't know what happened in Boston? I'm quite sure as is almost ALWAYS the case, that "high profile" events like these that involve many govt agencies after -- are rarely as they seem or are reported in mainstream media aka corporate media.

There are forces at work that have very different view of reality than I do, or most of the citizenry do. The govt. is really a place where the shills of the money elites (the 2%) pass or un-pass laws that keep things the way they are. The excessive military and secrecy agencies that do things WAY outside the constitution are involved in almost everything. 911, OKC, Spain, on and on and on... the trial in Guatemala was cancelled with the now president was about to be dragged in to it. All of this stuff has happened with the input and or control or arming by US secrecy agencies and military, and wealthy.

it's about keeping the sheep distracted and drugged and keeping the control and power in the hands of a relatively few. And in some ideology stuff to the mix, and racism --

We have a culture of fear. The technology allows now to just become totally consumed with watching.

The culture of fear is in effect. The media is just a part of it and no longer a balancing truth teller. Truth tellers are either off'd, or fired or setup or exposed as uncredible when they have a personal skeleton in closet --

Conspiracy Theory has become a "code name" for "whack job" as opposed to the reality, that in fact, there are other realities in play that none of us get much exposure to. A few people learn things or spend years trying to uncover and put pieces together. They too are at the fringes or marginalized. Most reasonable people in the moderate center with slight liberal leanings (on social issues) cannot wrap their heads around what is likely truly in play.

So be it.

I don't really care at this point. The world is NOT going to suddenly have a wake-up call, and all the heinous sh it that goes on isn't going to stop. There isn't going to be any truth and reconcilliation for all the people tortured, murdered, made to suffer and all the lies and hypocrisies...

I have no idea all the elements involved in this Boston thing. And it isn't Davey D Cook an Oakland-based journalist, and hip-hop man with a radio show and blog, or Glen Beck some Limbaugh-esque nut-job that are going to be my prime sources.

I just know that the truth is never told in these situations. And there is always more than meets the eye. From Obama on down, it's about "perception" and controlling information. Whether agencies goof'd, or were corrupt it doesn't matter.

The reality is, it's a culture of fear and this event is just another spoke in the wheel.

The various executive orders, the bogus laws, we have a corrupt Executive Branch and Congress and political Judicial. It's rigged. It's all bs.

And I'm at an age now, and given my own personal challenges with day-to-day life -- where I'm not going to try to change it for the better only to be marginalized or killed off by the machine. But I'm sure not going to waste time in discussions about presumed facts and assertions that live in a deluded reality that frames things in a way that the majority discuss and debate something with assumptions in place that are false.

Sometimes two guys just blow shit up and then get caught and/or die.

Monkeyboy wrote:Gun buyers aren't muslim terrorists!!!

The one that gets me is McCain. That guy should know that being held without due process and rights is just wrong. I guess since he folded under torture (as I would have), he thinks everyone else will.

He is the absolute worst.

BigEd76 wrote:This guy got locked down with a one-night stand. Worst luck

The piece is just an excuse to tell everyone that he had sex.

Trent Steele wrote:Sometimes two guys just blow #$!&@ up and then get caught and/or die.

Not really.

Doll Is Mine wrote:Andrew Sullivan

The first US citizen, Jose Padilla, was captured on US soil, originally detained with formal charges, accused of plotting a dirty bomb, and then brutally tortured until he was a human wreck. Eventually, the dirty bomb charges were dropped in the legal process. And there was a serious question about whether, after such brutal torture and isolation, he had been psychologically brutalized by his own government to the point of insanity.

Tsarnaev, in contrast, was formerly charged this morning, will be tried in a civilian court, go through due process, and face a weight of evidence against him.

This is why we elected Obama. To bring America back. To defend this country without betraying its core principles.

I thought we elected Obama because the Republicans were in control when the economy tanked in 2008, and then they went crazy with anti-gay and anti-woman and anti-47% rhetoric in 2012.

Swiggers wrote:

Doll Is Mine wrote:Andrew Sullivan

The first US citizen, Jose Padilla, was captured on US soil, originally detained with formal charges, accused of plotting a dirty bomb, and then brutally tortured until he was a human wreck. Eventually, the dirty bomb charges were dropped in the legal process. And there was a serious question about whether, after such brutal torture and isolation, he had been psychologically brutalized by his own government to the point of insanity.

Tsarnaev, in contrast, was formerly charged this morning, will be tried in a civilian court, go through due process, and face a weight of evidence against him.

This is why we elected Obama. To bring America back. To defend this country without betraying its core principles.

I thought we elected Obama because the Republicans were in control when the economy tanked in 2008, and then they went crazy with anti-gay and anti-woman and anti-47% rhetoric in 2012.

I think that falls under "bringing America back".

There are forces at work that have very different view of reality than I do, or most of the citizenry do. The govt. is really a place where the shills of the money elites (the 2%) pass or un-pass laws that keep things the way they are. The excessive military and secrecy agencies that do things WAY outside the constitution are involved in almost everything. 911, OKC, Spain, on and on and on... the trial in Guatemala was cancelled with the now president was about to be dragged in to it. All of this stuff has happened with the input and or control or arming by US secrecy agencies and military, and wealthy.

you appear to think the government is full of supernatural beings with the ability to pull strings left and right, and not mere mortals like you and i who are fallible and generally fuckups like everyone else on the planet. i wish they were as efficient as you believe them to be for them to have been able to concoct event after event with absolutely no leaks in the history of man ever.

there is a difference between exploiting a tragedy and creating one, but you appear to not bother to see or care about the difference. your blathering on about this as though you are in tune with some sort of secret knowledge us sheep aren't belies that you aren't nearly as smart as you try to portray yourself to be.

FTN wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:There's no doubt, a lockdown, even if it's a request, is a major limitation on civil liberties. To evaluate it, you have to ask first, whether public safety outweighs the significant costs. And I have a hard time getting to yes on that. I just don't think a typical Bostonian would have been at an increased risk had they gone about their day. I'd think a significant snow storm is likely to be more dangerous. The other issue is whether the lockdown makes it easier to apprehend the suspect. On that question, I suspect the answer is yes, but I really don't know.

1. the limitation on civil liberties would have been if it was legally mandated that you stay in your house. that wasn't what happened here. people stayed inside because either they were scared, they were happy to have a day off and do nothing, or they genuinely thought it would help law enforcement. i went outside at 4pm to the grocery store around the corner. a few people were milling about. no one seemed panicked or inconvenienced

2. on point 2, i think it pretty obviously helps/helped. more people on the street means more distraction and the potential to "blend in" and get lost in a crowd. which i think was the whole point of asking people to stay inside.

Even though the shelter in place was voluntary, it's still not a "nothing," it's an exercise of government authority. People probably did stay in place for the reasons you listed, but it's not too hard to imagine at least some people felt coerced. It was perfectly appropriate under the circumstances, but if we're concerned about the civil liberty implications of all this, which we should be, we should be wary of such calls becoming routine. It's reasonable to ask under what circumstances government should make such a call, how extensive should they be, and how long should they be in place. We might also wonder what if the voluntary advisory had not been heeded--would the government be justified in being more forceful?

Ari Melber ‏@AriMelber
Tsarnaev was advised of his Miranda rights during today's initial appearance, confirmed by @PeteWilliamsNBC

Ari Melber ‏@AriMelber 1m
Tsarnaev nodded yes to 4 Qs today: Can you answer Qs? You have your lawyers? Interrupt if you don't understand & you know you can be silent?

at Al Sharpton trying to pronounce Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's name.

TenuredVulture wrote:

FTN wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:There's no doubt, a lockdown, even if it's a request, is a major limitation on civil liberties. To evaluate it, you have to ask first, whether public safety outweighs the significant costs. And I have a hard time getting to yes on that. I just don't think a typical Bostonian would have been at an increased risk had they gone about their day. I'd think a significant snow storm is likely to be more dangerous. The other issue is whether the lockdown makes it easier to apprehend the suspect. On that question, I suspect the answer is yes, but I really don't know.

1. the limitation on civil liberties would have been if it was legally mandated that you stay in your house. that wasn't what happened here. people stayed inside because either they were scared, they were happy to have a day off and do nothing, or they genuinely thought it would help law enforcement. i went outside at 4pm to the grocery store around the corner. a few people were milling about. no one seemed panicked or inconvenienced

2. on point 2, i think it pretty obviously helps/helped. more people on the street means more distraction and the potential to "blend in" and get lost in a crowd. which i think was the whole point of asking people to stay inside.

Even though the shelter in place was voluntary, it's still not a "nothing," it's an exercise of government authority. People probably did stay in place for the reasons you listed, but it's not too hard to imagine at least some people felt coerced. It was perfectly appropriate under the circumstances, but if we're concerned about the civil liberty implications of all this, which we should be, we should be wary of such calls becoming routine. It's reasonable to ask under what circumstances government should make such a call, how extensive should they be, and how long should they be in place. We might also wonder what if the voluntary advisory had not been heeded--would the government be justified in being more forceful?

If they became more routine, people would disobey the voluntary order. Any attempts to stop people would quickly be met with the ACLU filing an injunction in federal court. There's a self-correcting aspect to this that should preclude overreaching.

Philly the Kid wrote:

Trent Steele wrote:Sometimes two guys just blow #$!&@ up and then get caught and/or die.

Not really.

Really.

Doll Is Mine wrote::lol: at Al Sharpton trying to pronounce Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's name.

Drakkar Show'nuff

Monkeyboy wrote:Gun buyers aren't muslim terrorists!!!

The one that gets me is McCain. That guy should know that being held without due process and rights is just wrong. I guess since he folded under torture (as I would have), he thinks everyone else will.

McCain was a prisoner of war, and I don't think he has anything against people holding prisoners of war or enemy combatants. He's against the use of torture on prisoners of war or detainees. Being classified as an enemy combatant != torture.

I don't think it makes sense to do so in this case because it appears from everything we know at the moment that they weren't a part of a larger terrorist cell. But if all signs were pointing to an ongoing threat, I'd hope they would see if there was any way for them to do it.

Trent Steele wrote:

Philly the Kid wrote:

Trent Steele wrote:Sometimes two guys just blow #$!&@ up and then get caught and/or die.

Not really.

Really.

I remember reading (maybe even on bsg) that there is a thought that some conspiracy theorists can't handle the fact that ordinary people may do awful things to people so it may make them feel better to think it's always some government coverup/plan.

Do you fall into this camp, PTK? Cause if you really don't think people ever do this on their own....