philliesphhan wrote:Who is Vincent?

Journeyman reliefer, pitched a few games for the giants this year

philliesphhan wrote:Who is Vincent?

Van Gough of course.

philliesphhan wrote:Who is Vincent?

Yellow lab. He was in the cargo hold.

Ace Rothstein wrote:Added to the roster

Gosselin
Grullon
Vincent
Irvin
Bruce

Drew Anderson DFA’ed
Morgan to 60 day IL
Eickhoff to 60 day IL

Should I be surprised by the Anderson move?

Warszawa wrote:Should I be surprised by the Anderson move?

I don't think so.

MoBettle wrote:

mtcal wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

phorever wrote:

mtcal wrote:for getting ripped pretty frequently by a lot, klentak's acquisitions in the pen and to fill in have kinda kept us alive re: Dickerson morin etc

get well soon jay bruce!

to me, what klentak did wrong is pretty much limited to going with the combo of talented but high-risk starters backed by a deep and proven but expensive pen instead of going with the alternative fewer expensive vets in the pen and using the money for corbin and/or keuchel. that was a gamble that could have paid off, but instead he got pretty much the worse case scenario out of it: all risky starters regressed, all expensive old relievers ... and most of the young ones... got hurt. and yes, i am probably overly forgiving of this because i convinced myself it was the right gamble.

what klentak did right in the offseason was acquire bryce, cutch, jtr, and sequra. all have contributed vastly more than the guys they replaced, and cutch may well have been right up there with jtr in the top ten of fwar if he hadn't gotten hurt.

what klentak did right during the season is pick up enough talent to keep them in the playoff hunt despite the injuries, and spend next to nothing doing it so that they can go all-in on the likes of cole and cole this coming offseason.

In baseball today no GM should get a pass when the old, expensive relievers he signed get hurt or suck.

Yes Bryce, Cutch, JT and Segura improved their respective positions over 2018 but other than JT it can be debated if each move was the best option.

not to argue re: relief pitchers but the pen was full of holes last year - what other options were there? throw kids in there from inside the org and hope they pan out? (don't forget some of our returning players got hurt this year too - see seranthony)? acquire other random inexpensive unproven bullpen pieces? ask middleton for even more money and get younger expensive guys?

Do a better job amassing talent in the prior 3 years he held the job.

There's that. Also no requirement to spend the resources on the 'pen. Bolster the rotation if you're dead set on pitching. To win baseball games you only need score more runs than your opponent. 3B was an easy place to upgrade, especially with no doubt now about the orgs thought on Franco.

MFing Nats just feasted on that shitty team from Florida.

Uncle Milty wrote:

Warszawa wrote:Should I be surprised by the Anderson move?

I don't think so.

Another talented young pitcher whose development went backwards.

Nice to see Eflin rebounding from his mid-season meltdown. Still see him as part of the rotation in 2020

Pretty sure Haseley should be the CFer too

Phillies are still 2 ganes behind last year's team. but since they then lost 8 of there next ten I'm hoping they can pull ahead shorty.

Cory Seidman wrote:The Phillies will enter this offseason in need of at least four starting pitchers and arguably as many relievers.

Thats a little over the top there Cory

Warszawa wrote:

Cory Seidman wrote:The Phillies will enter this offseason in need of at least four starting pitchers and arguably as many relievers.

Thats a little over the top there Cory

indeed. given the inherent fragility of pitchers, any team that can afford to buy or trade for every good-to-great starter on the market should do so, but the phils need to do so in order to complete isn't nearly as great as seidman suggests.

roughly, the top 90 pitchers in mlb correspond to the set of legitimate #3 or better pitchers.
nola, eflin, and arrieta rank 27, 82, and 91 in fwar; 17, 80, and 88 in bwar. (out of around 120 starters with at least 80 innings pitched). their ranks in fip-, xfip-, and siera are pretty much the same story (except nola is around 30th in each of those).
vv is in the 100-110 range of a serviceable but mediocre back-end starter.

one big problem this year is that nola performing more like a fringe #1 than an ace and arrieta being hurt puts us in the low end of overall value from rotation spots 1-3 or 1-4. adding just gerrit cole would give us two #1s and successful surgery on arrieta could return him to solid #2 status. then eflin/vv as 3/4 plus a bunch of fungible #5s like they already have becomes a league-average or better rotation. only if the pitchers being acquired all are at the level of smyly/vargas instead of legit top-of-rotation guys, or (shudder) if nola gets hurt (another shudder), do the phillies NEED to add 3 or more starters.

Uncle Milty wrote:

MoBettle wrote:

mtcal wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

phorever wrote:

mtcal wrote:for getting ripped pretty frequently by a lot, klentak's acquisitions in the pen and to fill in have kinda kept us alive re: Dickerson morin etc

get well soon jay bruce!

to me, what klentak did wrong is pretty much limited to going with the combo of talented but high-risk starters backed by a deep and proven but expensive pen instead of going with the alternative fewer expensive vets in the pen and using the money for corbin and/or keuchel. that was a gamble that could have paid off, but instead he got pretty much the worse case scenario out of it: all risky starters regressed, all expensive old relievers ... and most of the young ones... got hurt. and yes, i am probably overly forgiving of this because i convinced myself it was the right gamble.

what klentak did right in the offseason was acquire bryce, cutch, jtr, and sequra. all have contributed vastly more than the guys they replaced, and cutch may well have been right up there with jtr in the top ten of fwar if he hadn't gotten hurt.

what klentak did right during the season is pick up enough talent to keep them in the playoff hunt despite the injuries, and spend next to nothing doing it so that they can go all-in on the likes of cole and cole this coming offseason.

In baseball today no GM should get a pass when the old, expensive relievers he signed get hurt or suck.

Yes Bryce, Cutch, JT and Segura improved their respective positions over 2018 but other than JT it can be debated if each move was the best option.

not to argue re: relief pitchers but the pen was full of holes last year - what other options were there? throw kids in there from inside the org and hope they pan out? (don't forget some of our returning players got hurt this year too - see seranthony)? acquire other random inexpensive unproven bullpen pieces? ask middleton for even more money and get younger expensive guys?

Do a better job amassing talent in the prior 3 years he held the job.

There's that. Also no requirement to spend the resources on the 'pen. Bolster the rotation if you're dead set on pitching. To win baseball games you only need score more runs than your opponent. 3B was an easy place to upgrade, especially with no doubt now about the orgs thought on Franco.

Yeah Gelb wrote about this this weekend, seems like building your pitching staff by committing heavily to the pen might be fundamentally flawed, their performance varies more year to year and they're generally only in the pen in the first place because they burnt out as starters.

Williams is back

MoBettle wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

MoBettle wrote:

mtcal wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

phorever wrote:

mtcal wrote:for getting ripped pretty frequently by a lot, klentak's acquisitions in the pen and to fill in have kinda kept us alive re: Dickerson morin etc

get well soon jay bruce!

to me, what klentak did wrong is pretty much limited to going with the combo of talented but high-risk starters backed by a deep and proven but expensive pen instead of going with the alternative fewer expensive vets in the pen and using the money for corbin and/or keuchel. that was a gamble that could have paid off, but instead he got pretty much the worse case scenario out of it: all risky starters regressed, all expensive old relievers ... and most of the young ones... got hurt. and yes, i am probably overly forgiving of this because i convinced myself it was the right gamble.

what klentak did right in the offseason was acquire bryce, cutch, jtr, and sequra. all have contributed vastly more than the guys they replaced, and cutch may well have been right up there with jtr in the top ten of fwar if he hadn't gotten hurt.

what klentak did right during the season is pick up enough talent to keep them in the playoff hunt despite the injuries, and spend next to nothing doing it so that they can go all-in on the likes of cole and cole this coming offseason.

In baseball today no GM should get a pass when the old, expensive relievers he signed get hurt or suck.

Yes Bryce, Cutch, JT and Segura improved their respective positions over 2018 but other than JT it can be debated if each move was the best option.

not to argue re: relief pitchers but the pen was full of holes last year - what other options were there? throw kids in there from inside the org and hope they pan out? (don't forget some of our returning players got hurt this year too - see seranthony)? acquire other random inexpensive unproven bullpen pieces? ask middleton for even more money and get younger expensive guys?

Do a better job amassing talent in the prior 3 years he held the job.

There's that. Also no requirement to spend the resources on the 'pen. Bolster the rotation if you're dead set on pitching. To win baseball games you only need score more runs than your opponent. 3B was an easy place to upgrade, especially with no doubt now about the orgs thought on Franco.

Yeah Gelb wrote about this this weekend, seems like building your pitching staff by committing heavily to the pen might be fundamentally flawed, their performance varies more year to year and they're generally only in the pen in the first place because they burnt out as starters.

Isn't this sorta old timey thinking? They build up guys in the minors as strictly bullpen arms all the time now

Not everyone but there are still a decent number of failed starters at least with the phillies bullpen this year

Mentioned in today's GDT, Nick Vincent is the 54th different Phillie in a regular season game this year, tying the 1996 record

C (3) = Realmuto, Knapp, Brantly
IF (6) = Hoskins, Hernandez, Segura, Franco, Morrison, Walding
UT (4) = Kingery, Rodriguez, Miller, Gosselin
OF (10) = McCutchen, Herrera, Harper, Altherr, Williams, Quinn, Cozens, Haseley, Bruce, Dickerson
RHP SP (6) = Nola, Arrieta, Eflin, Velasquez, Pivetta, Eickhoff
LHP SP (3) = Smyly, Vargas, Irvin
RHP RP (18) = Neris, Dominguez, Hunter, Neshek, Robertson, Nicasio, Salas, Arano, Garcia, Rios, Ramos, Anderson, De Los Santos, Hammer, Morin, Parker, Hughes, Vincent
LHP RP (4) = Alvarez, Morgan, Suarez, Davis

BigEd76 wrote:Williams is back

The Cup is ours.

BigEd76 wrote:Mentioned in today's GDT, Nick Vincent is the 54th different Phillie in a regular season game this year, tying the 1996 record

C (3) = Realmuto, Knapp, Brantly
IF (6) = Hoskins, Hernandez, Segura, Franco, Morrison, Walding
UT (4) = Kingery, Rodriguez, Miller, Gosselin
OF (10) = McCutchen, Herrera, Harper, Altherr, Williams, Quinn, Cozens, Haseley, Bruce, Dickerson
RHP SP (6) = Nola, Arrieta, Eflin, Velasquez, Pivetta, Eickhoff
LHP SP (3) = Smyly, Vargas, Irvin
RHP RP (18) = Neris, Dominguez, Hunter, Neshek, Robertson, Nicasio, Salas, Arano, Garcia, Rios, Ramos, Anderson, De Los Santos, Hammer, Morin, Parker, Hughes, Vincent
LHP RP (4) = Alvarez, Morgan, Suarez, Davis

and they'll pass it as soon as Grullion appears I believe?

edit - yes, ed already said this (of course)