Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby Doll Is Mine » Mon Jan 14, 2013 19:29:54

Al Sharpton just bitchslapped a little whiny white dude who thought he could get away with claiming that MLK would support "Gun Appreciation Day".

:lol:

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby Wizlah » Mon Jan 14, 2013 19:59:31

I wasn't putting the dots together when Swartz died, but I'd first read about this last year in a Ben Goldacre article:

Now, the US government alleges that Swartz intended to release his academic paper stash for free on file-sharing websites. This may be true, but he did not do so. Shortly after his arrest, however, a posting appeared on the Pirate Bay website, declaring the release of 33 gigabytes of academic papers from the UK journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, free for download. This file, explained the poster, was an act of protest about Swartz's arrest. The papers range from the 17th century up to 1923, and are mostly out of copyright.

These are, in some respects, remarkable tales of Robin Hood behaviour. JSTOR expended huge effort scanning these Royal Society papers in the 90s, when scanning was tougher, and they should be thanked. But it's hard to believe we can't find a better way to do so: JSTOR sells each paper for between $8 (£5) and $19 (£11.70), while the Royal Society estimates that the pay-per-view income from the public accessing them is half a percent of their journal income.

One major problem with the current publishing model is that it's hard to give access for free to the motivated public, while still gathering income from institutions. My hunch is, at some stage, this problem may be partially sidestepped, when someone manages an illegal workaround that individuals can play with, but which no university could endorse. I may be wrong: but either way, these are very interesting times for information.


Related Monbiot article:

Everyone claims to agree that people should be encouraged to understand science and other academic research. Without current knowledge, we cannot make coherent democratic decisions. But the publishers have slapped a padlock and a "keep out" sign on the gates.

You might resent Murdoch's paywall policy, in which he charges £1 for 24 hours of access to the Times and Sunday Times. But at least in that period you can read and download as many articles as you like. Reading a single article published by one of Elsevier's journals will cost you $31.50. Springer charges €34.95, Wiley-Blackwell, $42. Read 10 and you pay 10 times. And the journals retain perpetual copyright. You want to read a letter printed in 1981? That'll be $31.50.

Of course, you could go into the library (if it still exists). But they too have been hit by cosmic fees. The average cost of an annual subscription to a chemistry journal is $3,792. Some journals cost $10,000 a year or more to stock. The most expensive I've seen, Elsevier's Biochimica et Biophysica Acta, is $20,930. Though academic libraries have been frantically cutting subscriptions to make ends meet, journals now consume 65% of their budgets, which means they have had to reduce the number of books they buy. Journal fees account for a significant component of universities' costs, which are being passed to their students.
...
The publishers claim that they have to charge these fees as a result of the costs of production and distribution, and that they add value (in Springer's words) because they "develop journal brands and maintain and improve the digital infrastructure which has revolutionised scientific communication in the past 15 years". But an analysis by Deutsche Bank reaches different conclusions. "We believe the publisher adds relatively little value to the publishing process … if the process really were as complex, costly and value-added as the publishers protest that it is, 40% margins wouldn't be available." Far from assisting the dissemination of research, the big publishers impede it, as their long turnaround times can delay the release of findings by a year or more.


Huey Morgan gave a shout out to Swartz this weekend on his Radio 6 show. I was surprised, but he was right to do it. There's an issue here which needs a long hard look at it. It's not a satisfactory solution. The researchers+colleges get paid for their work by whoever comissions the research. They get the accolades when they break through. So it's not like they're sold short. They want to republish aspects of their work in a more popular format, they can do so, and get an advance. But because the only system we currently have for checking then disseminating this info is through peer-reviewed journals, and because they charge a mint for this info, you can't access it publicly. Given that a not unreasonable chunk of research is commissioned through government money, paid by taxpayers, it does feel a bit of a crock.

(We'll leave aside the whole issue of the problems of how peer-review journals select papers to publish for another day. Ho hum.)

(If you're a scientist, Goldacre is always worth a look. Between him and Grannywiz, I have learned much about Cochrane reviews, cherry picking and all that other good stuff. His Bad Science blog is here.His most recent piece was about a doc he did on randomised trials on social policy.)
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby td11 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 21:27:25

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby pacino » Mon Jan 14, 2013 21:33:16

:spam2:
Doll Is Mine wrote:Al Sharpton just bitchslapped a little whiny white dude who thought he could get away with claiming that MLK would support "Gun Appreciation Day".

:lol:

i just cant get past al sharpton trying to read a teleprompter and him admitting he wont criticize the president. maddow, chris hayes, melissa harris perry is all i can stomach on msnbc. when they got rid of Cenk for Sharpton, I had a sad.
thephan wrote:pacino's posting is one of the more important things revealed in weeks.

Calvinball wrote:Pacino was right.

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby The Dude » Tue Jan 15, 2013 00:07:01



the only thing i don't get is that it's not up to MIT to decide if they can freely give away the JSTOR articles. A major defense was that MIT freely admits to having a very open network that allows for people to exploit. Does JSTOR know that giving MIT users access gives the world access? That's the only point that I'm stuck on
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby drsmooth » Tue Jan 15, 2013 00:16:30

The Dude wrote:


the only thing i don't get is that it's not up to MIT to decide if they can freely give away the JSTOR articles. A major defense was that MIT freely admits to having a very open network that allows for people to exploit. Does JSTOR know that giving MIT users access gives the world access? That's the only point that I'm stuck on


JSTOR almost certainly is not auditing every institutional client's adherence to whatever standards it imposes. That is, it is behaving as practically every institution does with respect to policies that come along with whatever they are selling, particularly with respect to non-rivalrous wares (stuff that if you get some, doesn't prevent me from getting basically the same "some").

So in principle JSTOR probably has a beef with MIT. In practice it probably isn't in the habit of rigorously enforcing its principles. Whether it does or doesn't with MIT would likely be a matter of negotiation.
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby Doll Is Mine » Tue Jan 15, 2013 00:42:45

pacino wrote::spam2:
Doll Is Mine wrote:Al Sharpton just bitchslapped a little whiny white dude who thought he could get away with claiming that MLK would support "Gun Appreciation Day".

:lol:

i just cant get past al sharpton trying to read a teleprompter and him admitting he wont criticize the president. maddow, chris hayes, melissa harris perry is all i can stomach on msnbc. when they got rid of Cenk for Sharpton, I had a sad.


Your ass is spam.

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Jan 15, 2013 00:49:32

Obama won Suffolk County by 3.4% and Nassau County by 7.6%, and the GOP holds all 9 state senate seats there. Ancestrally GOP and on state issues makes sense that they'd differentiate themselves from the city, but that's still something. They all voted for the gun control measure that passed the NY Senate tonight.

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby The Dude » Tue Jan 15, 2013 01:25:56

drsmooth wrote:
The Dude wrote:


the only thing i don't get is that it's not up to MIT to decide if they can freely give away the JSTOR articles. A major defense was that MIT freely admits to having a very open network that allows for people to exploit. Does JSTOR know that giving MIT users access gives the world access? That's the only point that I'm stuck on


JSTOR almost certainly is not auditing every institutional client's adherence to whatever standards it imposes. That is, it is behaving as practically every institution does with respect to policies that come along with whatever they are selling, particularly with respect to non-rivalrous wares (stuff that if you get some, doesn't prevent me from getting basically the same "some").

So in principle JSTOR probably has a beef with MIT. In practice it probably isn't in the habit of rigorously enforcing its principles. Whether it does or doesn't with MIT would likely be a matter of negotiation.


They're selling library lucenses, its not that complicated

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby drsmooth » Tue Jan 15, 2013 01:30:14

jerseyhoya wrote:Obama won Suffolk County by 3.4% and Nassau County by 7.6%, and the GOP holds all 9 state senate seats there. Ancestrally GOP and on state issues makes sense that they'd differentiate themselves from the city, but that's still something.


It may be something, but it's not anything to do with Obama

now if spineless Tom Libous voted in favor of the legislation, now that would be new (but still not about Obama)

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby drsmooth » Tue Jan 15, 2013 01:31:30

The Dude wrote:
drsmooth wrote:
The Dude wrote:


the only thing i don't get is that it's not up to MIT to decide if they can freely give away the JSTOR articles. A major defense was that MIT freely admits to having a very open network that allows for people to exploit. Does JSTOR know that giving MIT users access gives the world access? That's the only point that I'm stuck on


JSTOR almost certainly is not auditing every institutional client's adherence to whatever standards it imposes. That is, it is behaving as practically every institution does with respect to policies that come along with whatever they are selling, particularly with respect to non-rivalrous wares (stuff that if you get some, doesn't prevent me from getting basically the same "some").

So in principle JSTOR probably has a beef with MIT. In practice it probably isn't in the habit of rigorously enforcing its principles. Whether it does or doesn't with MIT would likely be a matter of negotiation.


They're selling library lucenses, its not that complicated


Usage tracking of anything is always complicated

just because you don't know that doesn't make it otherwise
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby Phan In Phlorida » Tue Jan 15, 2013 04:21:00

What's the deal with Al Sharpton's head? It looks like he got bitten by a poisonous Polanco.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Jan 15, 2013 04:22:24

drsmooth wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:Obama won Suffolk County by 3.4% and Nassau County by 7.6%, and the GOP holds all 9 state senate seats there. Ancestrally GOP and on state issues makes sense that they'd differentiate themselves from the city, but that's still something.

It may be something, but it's not anything to do with Obama

now if spineless Tom Libous voted in favor of the legislation, now that would be new (but still not about Obama)

/guywhoworkedforNYSenateeonsagowhenitwasjustaboutthesame

No, it doesn't really have anything to do with Obama. Penetrating observation.

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby The Dude » Tue Jan 15, 2013 08:37:21

drsmooth wrote:
The Dude wrote:
drsmooth wrote:
The Dude wrote:


the only thing i don't get is that it's not up to MIT to decide if they can freely give away the JSTOR articles. A major defense was that MIT freely admits to having a very open network that allows for people to exploit. Does JSTOR know that giving MIT users access gives the world access? That's the only point that I'm stuck on


JSTOR almost certainly is not auditing every institutional client's adherence to whatever standards it imposes. That is, it is behaving as practically every institution does with respect to policies that come along with whatever they are selling, particularly with respect to non-rivalrous wares (stuff that if you get some, doesn't prevent me from getting basically the same "some").

So in principle JSTOR probably has a beef with MIT. In practice it probably isn't in the habit of rigorously enforcing its principles. Whether it does or doesn't with MIT would likely be a matter of negotiation.


They're selling library lucenses, its not that complicated


Usage tracking of anything is always complicated

just because you don't know that doesn't make it otherwise


that's not what I'm saying at all, and I know quite a bit about this as its related to my work.

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:31:25

Jstor dropped the issue before MIT. They were not at all interested in prosecuting Swartz, either criminally or civilly.
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby Bucky » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:42:06

Regardless of the specifics, I don't think we can pin this dude's death on anyone else. There's obviously deeper pathology there.

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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby The Dude » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:45:19

understood, but is it up to them, too? They're providing content from Journals, not material they produced, so I wasn't sure if they were the ultimate say. A company that has a license to sell my company's ebooks wouldn't be the final say if my books started popping up on sites illegally. I'm just curious about the licensing agreement
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby td11 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:52:19

The Dude wrote:


the only thing i don't get is that it's not up to MIT to decide if they can freely give away the JSTOR articles. A major defense was that MIT freely admits to having a very open network that allows for people to exploit. Does JSTOR know that giving MIT users access gives the world access? That's the only point that I'm stuck on


it seems to me that JSTOR was fully aware of the openness of the MIT network and how MIT ran it. like the dude says in the article, it was a loophole that "codified contractually"

plus the fact that JSTOR droppedthe whole thing:

Early on, and to its great credit, JSTOR figured “appropriate” out: They declined to pursue their own action against Aaron, and they asked the government to drop its. MIT, to its great shame, was not as clear, and so the prosecutor had the excuse he needed to continue his war against the “criminal” who we who loved him knew as Aaron.


i guess i just can fathom this guy going to jail for 35 years over this
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby td11 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:54:50

The Dude wrote:understood, but is it up to them, too? They're providing content from Journals, not material they produced, so I wasn't sure if they were the ultimate say. A company that has a license to sell my company's ebooks wouldn't be the final say if my books started popping up on sites illegally. I'm just curious about the licensing agreement


well if you have access to JSTOR via a univ or whatever, you can download anything you want. i never needed separate permission from the specific journal or whatever
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Re: Sequestering The Night Away - Politics

Postby The Dude » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:00:04

right, i'm saying is jsotr the final say. my example illustrates what i mean. they're not the owners of the content, taht's why i'm curious about the licensing
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