pacino wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:Israeli military put up video of an assassination (and and the murder of a photographer) of the Hamas defense minister. barbaric. this was in response to some crude stuff thrown. People were injured, but a great number of deaths have occurred due to the bombs in response. At least 3 children killed. Perhaps they shouldn't have had parents who were Palestinian...they had it coming. VICTORY!

I find your constant one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tiring. Israel, to be sure, has been guilty of overreaction at times. But I would very much like to see your restraint after living under constant fear of missiles, suicide bombers, and kidnapping.

you find my lack of faith disturbing?

this a one-sided conflict. one side is backed by the biggest power known to man. one side has all the weapons. one side has the UN Security Council veto on its side. one side just said there would be consequences for other trying to appeal to the General Assembly for limited statehood.

some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence is different than israel actively preventing the actual existence of palestine. some of the poorest people in the world don't like the people who surround them and prevent any chance at improving their lives? color me shocked

i have friends who live or have lived in israel. israelis are great. the israeli government and military suck.

Well, I have lived in Israel myself and I can tell you that it is psychologically taxing to be in fear every time you do something as mundane as get on a public bus. Both sides have weapons. Just today, Hamas launched at least 150 rockets into Israel. One side at least attempts to limit collateral damage (not always successfully and more could be done) while the other specifically targets civilians. If the "some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence" was simply peaceful protest, then ok - but it's fantasy to ignore that those palestinians commit terrorist attacks that target civilians.

I have long believed that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who are able to co-exist in a world with an independent Palestinian state with Israel as a neighbor. Once those 99% start to control (and not elect as their government) the 1% who believe Israel has no right to exist and that there is no moral difference between a civilian and a soldier, we might actually get somewhere.

All of that being said, my objection is that you lay blame entirely with one side. As Soren said, it is a terrible and nuanced situation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, the belief that one side is totally right and one side completely wrong (good vs. evil) is one of the biggest obstacles for peace from becoming a reality.

The Israeli government can go fuck themselves and globally we'd be better off if they would mellow the fuck out, but I rarely see the vitriol aimed directly at the conservative rule in Israel

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:Israeli military put up video of an assassination (and and the murder of a photographer) of the Hamas defense minister. barbaric. this was in response to some crude stuff thrown. People were injured, but a great number of deaths have occurred due to the bombs in response. At least 3 children killed. Perhaps they shouldn't have had parents who were Palestinian...they had it coming. VICTORY!

I find your constant one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tiring. Israel, to be sure, has been guilty of overreaction at times. But I would very much like to see your restraint after living under constant fear of missiles, suicide bombers, and kidnapping.

you find my lack of faith disturbing?

this a one-sided conflict. one side is backed by the biggest power known to man. one side has all the weapons. one side has the UN Security Council veto on its side. one side just said there would be consequences for other trying to appeal to the General Assembly for limited statehood.

some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence is different than israel actively preventing the actual existence of palestine. some of the poorest people in the world don't like the people who surround them and prevent any chance at improving their lives? color me shocked

i have friends who live or have lived in israel. israelis are great. the israeli government and military suck.

Well, I have lived in Israel myself and I can tell you that it is psychologically taxing to be in fear every time you do something as mundane as get on a public bus. Both sides have weapons. Just today, Hamas launched at least 150 rockets into Israel. One side at least attempts to limit collateral damage (not always successfully and more could be done) while the other specifically targets civilians. If the "some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence" was simply peaceful protest, then ok - but it's fantasy to ignore that those palestinians commit terrorist attacks that target civilians.

I have long believed that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who are able to co-exist in a world with an independent Palestinian state with Israel as a neighbor. Once those 99% start to control (and not elect as their government) the 1% who believe Israel has no right to exist and that there is no moral difference between a civilian and a soldier, we might actually get somewhere.

All of that being said, my objection is that you lay blame entirely with one side. As Soren said, it is a terrible and nuanced situation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, the belief that one side is totally right and one side completely wrong (good vs. evil) is one of the biggest obstacles for peace from becoming a reality.

you aren't wrong.

I should add that another thing I find disturbing about so much backing of Israel is where it comes from (in this country). it's not some altruistic thing about justice and morality, but rather it comes from this crazy notion of Israel needing to exist for hte end times to come and for people to be 'saved'. You can't talk nuance when part of the people you're talking to believe that.

pacino wrote:

Soren wrote:It's a miserable/nuanced situation, but the conservative party's stranglehold on the Israeli government doesn't help. Neither does the vilifying of Jews done so casually. I talk about this a lot with one of my 5 friends IRL, it's tough for her being a staunch liberal and then seeing the way liberals casually attack Israel without assigning any blame on terrorist acts committed by Palestinians.

it's not about assigning blame just on israelis. the acts by palestinians are also horrific. but the power structure makes it so that they can't actually do anything or improve the situation.

They could, you know, reject extremists. They could not villify Abbas for even considering dropping the right of return as a pre-condition to negotiations and understand that difficult and in many cases painful compromises by both sides will be necessary to bring about a resolution.

But I do want to make clear that I truly believe both sides are to blame. I cannot stand the Israeli extremists who continue to build and live in settlements on land that everyone knows will ultimately be a part of an independent Palestinian state. All those people do is enflame tenions and metaphorically spit in the eye of the Palestinians. The majority of Israeli support dismantling all of these settlements and the government should listen to them.

pacino wrote:I should add that another thing I find disturbing about so much backing of Israel is where it comes from (in this country). it's not some altruistic thing about justice and morality, but rather it comes from this crazy notion of Israel needing to exist for hte end times to come and for people to be 'saved'. You can't talk nuance when part of the people you're talking to believe that.

Agree completely with this. Pat Robertson's love of Israel is only because he needs the Jews to control Israel and then be completely wiped out for the end of days to begin.

the people building settlements also appear to have the most children, from what i've read.

i think at this point there has to be a redrawing of the map simply because of what's already happened. you have to deal with where people actually live now, despite who actually 'owns' what. so that is a concession Palestinians will have to come around to.

pacino wrote:the people building settlements also appear to have the most children, from what i've read.

i think at this point there has to be a redrawing of the map simply because of what's already happened. you have to deal with where people actually live now, despite who actually 'owns' what. so that is a concession Palestinians will have to come around to.

Yep. That's because most of these settlers are ultra-orthodox Jews who believe Israel must return to biblical borders (i.e., including most of Jordan) and that population also has the highest birth rates (for obvious reasons). I can't stand religious extremists in the US and I can't stand them in Israel or Palestine or anywhere.

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:Israeli military put up video of an assassination (and and the murder of a photographer) of the Hamas defense minister. barbaric. this was in response to some crude stuff thrown. People were injured, but a great number of deaths have occurred due to the bombs in response. At least 3 children killed. Perhaps they shouldn't have had parents who were Palestinian...they had it coming. VICTORY!

I find your constant one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tiring. Israel, to be sure, has been guilty of overreaction at times. But I would very much like to see your restraint after living under constant fear of missiles, suicide bombers, and kidnapping.

you find my lack of faith disturbing?

this a one-sided conflict. one side is backed by the biggest power known to man. one side has all the weapons. one side has the UN Security Council veto on its side. one side just said there would be consequences for other trying to appeal to the General Assembly for limited statehood.

some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence is different than israel actively preventing the actual existence of palestine. some of the poorest people in the world don't like the people who surround them and prevent any chance at improving their lives? color me shocked

i have friends who live or have lived in israel. israelis are great. the israeli government and military suck.

Well, I have lived in Israel myself and I can tell you that it is psychologically taxing to be in fear every time you do something as mundane as get on a public bus. Both sides have weapons. Just today, Hamas launched at least 150 rockets into Israel. One side at least attempts to limit collateral damage (not always successfully and more could be done) while the other specifically targets civilians. If the "some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence" was simply peaceful protest, then ok - but it's fantasy to ignore that those palestinians commit terrorist attacks that target civilians.

I have long believed that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who are able to co-exist in a world with an independent Palestinian state with Israel as a neighbor. Once those 99% start to control (and not elect as their government) the 1% who believe Israel has no right to exist and that there is no moral difference between a civilian and a soldier, we might actually get somewhere.

All of that being said, my objection is that you lay blame entirely with one side. As Soren said, it is a terrible and nuanced situation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, the belief that one side is totally right and one side completely wrong (good vs. evil) is one of the biggest obstacles for peace from becoming a reality.

Sure, but you do realize that the post that caused you to respond to him was one where he was decrying the "collateral damage" of the murder of children and the attitude that it was anything other than an unfortunate (and unavoidable, depending on your point of view) tragedy? pacino's point on that particular issue is 100% accurate. "Living in fear" isn't a justification for murdering innocent children, intentionally or collaterally. It's not okay when the US does it, the Israelis do it, or the Palestinians do it.

yay, religious crazies on all sides are controlling and pushing the debate. what can go wrong?

I've probably talked about the Iron Law of Emulation here before. That's more or less the problem in Israel. As the Israeli group that most resembles the ignorant and hateful fanaticism of the militants among the Palestinians--the super-Orthodox settlers--acquires more and more political power, the moderates are marginalized. That Netanyahu sees himself as a Churchill forever looking for his Hitler to heroically oppose doesn't help either.

There also has to be a factor of psychological exhaustion on the part of the Israeli center and left. They were so close to a solution at a couple points, getting even Sharon to come around, and it just didn't happen. So now the best lack all conviction.

RichmondPhilsFan wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:Israeli military put up video of an assassination (and and the murder of a photographer) of the Hamas defense minister. barbaric. this was in response to some crude stuff thrown. People were injured, but a great number of deaths have occurred due to the bombs in response. At least 3 children killed. Perhaps they shouldn't have had parents who were Palestinian...they had it coming. VICTORY!

I find your constant one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tiring. Israel, to be sure, has been guilty of overreaction at times. But I would very much like to see your restraint after living under constant fear of missiles, suicide bombers, and kidnapping.

you find my lack of faith disturbing?

this a one-sided conflict. one side is backed by the biggest power known to man. one side has all the weapons. one side has the UN Security Council veto on its side. one side just said there would be consequences for other trying to appeal to the General Assembly for limited statehood.

some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence is different than israel actively preventing the actual existence of palestine. some of the poorest people in the world don't like the people who surround them and prevent any chance at improving their lives? color me shocked

i have friends who live or have lived in israel. israelis are great. the israeli government and military suck.

Well, I have lived in Israel myself and I can tell you that it is psychologically taxing to be in fear every time you do something as mundane as get on a public bus. Both sides have weapons. Just today, Hamas launched at least 150 rockets into Israel. One side at least attempts to limit collateral damage (not always successfully and more could be done) while the other specifically targets civilians. If the "some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence" was simply peaceful protest, then ok - but it's fantasy to ignore that those palestinians commit terrorist attacks that target civilians.

I have long believed that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who are able to co-exist in a world with an independent Palestinian state with Israel as a neighbor. Once those 99% start to control (and not elect as their government) the 1% who believe Israel has no right to exist and that there is no moral difference between a civilian and a soldier, we might actually get somewhere.

All of that being said, my objection is that you lay blame entirely with one side. As Soren said, it is a terrible and nuanced situation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, the belief that one side is totally right and one side completely wrong (good vs. evil) is one of the biggest obstacles for peace from becoming a reality.

Sure, but you do realize that the post that caused you to respond to him was one where he was decrying the "collateral damage" of the murder of children and the attitude that it was anything other than an unfortunate (and unavoidable, depending on your point of view) tragedy? pacino's point on that particular issue is 100% accurate. "Living in fear" isn't a justification for murdering innocent children, intentionally or collaterally. It's not okay when the US does it, the Israelis do it, or the Palestinians do it.

No, I objected to the phrasing of the killing of the "Hamas defense minister" in the same vein that I would object to someone portraying the killing of Osama bin Laden as the "assassination of the Al-Qaeda defense minister." I also did not believe the characterization of Hamas' weapons as "some crude stuff thrown" was particularly fair. We're talking about rockets fired indiscriminately into towns and villages - not dumping some trash on your neighbor's lawn.

But I understand where Pac is coming from and I know (at least to the extent you can know someone on a message board) that he cares deeply for helping those in poor socio-economic conditions, here and abroad. I just think that extremism on every side is the problem and that includes commentary by outsiders.

dajafi wrote:I've probably talked about the Iron Law of Emulation here before. That's more or less the problem in Israel. As the Israeli group that most resembles the ignorant and hateful fanaticism of the militants among the Palestinians--the super-Orthodox settlers--acquires more and more political power, the moderates are marginalized. That Netanyahu sees himself as a Churchill forever looking for his Hitler to heroically oppose doesn't help either.

There also has to be a factor of psychological exhaustion on the part of the Israeli center and left. They were so close to a solution at a couple points, getting even Sharon to come around, and it just didn't happen. So now the best lack all conviction.

For me, the biggest missed opportunity was not Sharon but Barak. The Reagonite/Bush-esque right wing managed to turn Barak and his willingness to make necessary and meaningful compromises into a Jimmy Carter peace-loving hippie.

kimbatiste wrote:

dajafi wrote:I've probably talked about the Iron Law of Emulation here before. That's more or less the problem in Israel. As the Israeli group that most resembles the ignorant and hateful fanaticism of the militants among the Palestinians--the super-Orthodox settlers--acquires more and more political power, the moderates are marginalized. That Netanyahu sees himself as a Churchill forever looking for his Hitler to heroically oppose doesn't help either.

There also has to be a factor of psychological exhaustion on the part of the Israeli center and left. They were so close to a solution at a couple points, getting even Sharon to come around, and it just didn't happen. So now the best lack all conviction.

For me, the biggest missed opportunity was not Sharon but Barak. The Reagonite/Bush-esque right wing managed to turn Barak and his willingness to make necessary and meaningful compromises into a Jimmy Carter peace-loving hippie.

Which is weird for the most decorated soldier in the history of the IDF. Barak might have killed more people than Carter talked to.

drsmooth wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:One thing about the Jindal quote struck me as interesting--the American dream is to be in the middle class. I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I guess on a collective level, Americans would like a very large and stable middle class. But as individuals, I think lots of people want more than that. Or maybe it's just Lil' Vulture who wants a horse farm in the country, among other things usually associated with substantial wealth.

When you're ("you" meaning Jindal) scrambling to tamp down your cranky drunk impotent uncle's haranguing, you can get important details wrong.

Surprised there's no conspiracy theory to the effect that the stupid remarks are just Mitt's way of intentionally pooping in the Republican party pool in retribution for its tepid support for his candidacy

I mean another perfectly reasonable explanation is that his whining stupidity is of a piece with his utter lack of political talents, but people more expert than me continue to assure me that the guy has natural political gifts. I have not EVER seen evidence of ANY such talents, but I'm just a voter so what do I know.

Are you talking about Romney's political gifts? Because I don't know of anyone who really thinks he's a gifted politician, regardless of ideology.

He doesn't even fit the genteel aristocrat model of say a Kennedy or a Roosevelt. I think being born privileged is a pretty big liability in politics, and it takes a huge amount of charisma to overcome it. Privileged Kennedy was barely able to beat Nixon. Privilege Bush I was able to beat Dukakis (who I think grew up in upper-middle class comfort--dad was a doctor) and Gore and Bush were similar in their family backgrounds. But unless I'm mistaken, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and Obama all grew in more modest circumstances than their opponent. Carter grew up in better circumstances than Ford, so that was something of an exception.

dajafi wrote:I've probably talked about the Iron Law of Emulation here before. That's more or less the problem in Israel. As the Israeli group that most resembles the ignorant and hateful fanaticism of the militants among the Palestinians--the super-Orthodox settlers--acquires more and more political power, the moderates are marginalized. That Netanyahu sees himself as a Churchill forever looking for his Hitler to heroically oppose doesn't help either.

There also has to be a factor of psychological exhaustion on the part of the Israeli center and left. They were so close to a solution at a couple points, getting even Sharon to come around, and it just didn't happen. So now the best lack all conviction.

The difference between the radical Palestinians and the super-Orthodox is that the super-Orthodox don't actually fight the war they demand. How the rest of Israel puts up with them is beyond me.

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:Israeli military put up video of an assassination (and and the murder of a photographer) of the Hamas defense minister. barbaric. this was in response to some crude stuff thrown. People were injured, but a great number of deaths have occurred due to the bombs in response. At least 3 children killed. Perhaps they shouldn't have had parents who were Palestinian...they had it coming. VICTORY!

I find your constant one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tiring. Israel, to be sure, has been guilty of overreaction at times. But I would very much like to see your restraint after living under constant fear of missiles, suicide bombers, and kidnapping.

you find my lack of faith disturbing?

this a one-sided conflict. one side is backed by the biggest power known to man. one side has all the weapons. one side has the UN Security Council veto on its side. one side just said there would be consequences for other trying to appeal to the General Assembly for limited statehood.

some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence is different than israel actively preventing the actual existence of palestine. some of the poorest people in the world don't like the people who surround them and prevent any chance at improving their lives? color me shocked

i have friends who live or have lived in israel. israelis are great. the israeli government and military suck.

Well, I have lived in Israel myself and I can tell you that it is psychologically taxing to be in fear every time you do something as mundane as get on a public bus. Both sides have weapons. Just today, Hamas launched at least 150 rockets into Israel. One side at least attempts to limit collateral damage (not always successfully and more could be done) while the other specifically targets civilians. If the "some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence" was simply peaceful protest, then ok - but it's fantasy to ignore that those palestinians commit terrorist attacks that target civilians.

I have long believed that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who are able to co-exist in a world with an independent Palestinian state with Israel as a neighbor. Once those 99% start to control (and not elect as their government) the 1% who believe Israel has no right to exist and that there is no moral difference between a civilian and a soldier, we might actually get somewhere.

All of that being said, my objection is that you lay blame entirely with one side. As Soren said, it is a terrible and nuanced situation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, the belief that one side is totally right and one side completely wrong (good vs. evil) is one of the biggest obstacles for peace from becoming a reality.

I disagree that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who would be able to co-exist in a world with Israel as a neighbor. They've largely been raised in a world where they're trained to hate Israel and Jews from a young age. And that's not to say all of their grievances toward Israel are unfounded or imagined, but I think it's unrealistic to just flip a switch and expect that a huge majority of the population would be OK with Israel existing if a Palestinian state was set up. Hamas doesn't represent a tiny minority viewpoint within the Palestinian people. There's certainly zealotry from the Israeli side, but I think if a peace accord/settlement could be reached, the Israelis would have an easier time controlling their crazies while the Palestinian chunk of crazy would remain much more dangerous.

^This.

jerseyhoya wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:

kimbatiste wrote:

pacino wrote:Israeli military put up video of an assassination (and and the murder of a photographer) of the Hamas defense minister. barbaric. this was in response to some crude stuff thrown. People were injured, but a great number of deaths have occurred due to the bombs in response. At least 3 children killed. Perhaps they shouldn't have had parents who were Palestinian...they had it coming. VICTORY!

I find your constant one-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tiring. Israel, to be sure, has been guilty of overreaction at times. But I would very much like to see your restraint after living under constant fear of missiles, suicide bombers, and kidnapping.

you find my lack of faith disturbing?

this a one-sided conflict. one side is backed by the biggest power known to man. one side has all the weapons. one side has the UN Security Council veto on its side. one side just said there would be consequences for other trying to appeal to the General Assembly for limited statehood.

some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence is different than israel actively preventing the actual existence of palestine. some of the poorest people in the world don't like the people who surround them and prevent any chance at improving their lives? color me shocked

i have friends who live or have lived in israel. israelis are great. the israeli government and military suck.

Well, I have lived in Israel myself and I can tell you that it is psychologically taxing to be in fear every time you do something as mundane as get on a public bus. Both sides have weapons. Just today, Hamas launched at least 150 rockets into Israel. One side at least attempts to limit collateral damage (not always successfully and more could be done) while the other specifically targets civilians. If the "some palestinians not recognizing israel's real existence" was simply peaceful protest, then ok - but it's fantasy to ignore that those palestinians commit terrorist attacks that target civilians.

I have long believed that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who are able to co-exist in a world with an independent Palestinian state with Israel as a neighbor. Once those 99% start to control (and not elect as their government) the 1% who believe Israel has no right to exist and that there is no moral difference between a civilian and a soldier, we might actually get somewhere.

All of that being said, my objection is that you lay blame entirely with one side. As Soren said, it is a terrible and nuanced situation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, the belief that one side is totally right and one side completely wrong (good vs. evil) is one of the biggest obstacles for peace from becoming a reality.

I disagree that 99% of Palestinians are peaceful people who would be able to co-exist in a world with Israel as a neighbor. They've largely been raised in a world where they're trained to hate Israel and Jews from a young age. And that's not to say all of their grievances toward Israel are unfounded or imagined, but I think it's unrealistic to just flip a switch and expect that a huge majority of the population would be OK with Israel existing if a Palestinian state was set up. Hamas doesn't represent a tiny minority viewpoint within the Palestinian people. There's certainly zealotry from the Israeli side, but I think if a peace accord/settlement could be reached, the Israelis would have an easier time controlling their crazies while the Palestinian chunk of crazy would remain much more dangerous.

Oh, I agree with all of this. My 99% percent comment is more a statement of what is possible and not what is currently reality. I was saying that if there was peace, education and upbringing on each side changed to not demonize the other, eventually this would be the situation. Then you would be left with just the marginalized extremists that you have in every country (Timothy McVeigh, those who think we are being invaded by Mexico, Republicans (just kidding), etc.).

I also understand Palestinian's support of Hamas even though it is clearly counter-productive in the long run. Hamas is who provides your basic needs, provides the schools and therefore dictates the education the next generation receives. That is why I have advocated for the US to use its financial muscle to change Palestinian perception that Hamas helps them rather than hurts them.

If I were Obama, I would set a certain amount of foreign aid to Israel and to the Palestinians. If Hamas destroys an Israeli home with a rocket, it is rebuilt and the cost comes out of the Palestinians aid from the US. If a bomber destroys a restaurant, it is rebuilt and compensation to the victims comes out of Palestinian aid money. If Israel blows up a building in the West Bank, same deal. Any collateral damage, Israel pays out of their money and compensates the victims. If a Palestinian could see that every rocket fired by Hamas only costs them money and aid, perhaps they would be more inclined to stop it (same applying for Israelis voting against provocation).

Support for Hamas has as much to do with the corruption and incompetence of Fatah as it has to do with Hamas's radicalism. To ignore the domestic realities and consider only the foreign appeal is a mistake. It's also the case that in the early 90s, it was largely Fatah (at the time seen by many, if not most Palestinians as illegitimate) that failed to take advantage of the best opportunity for peace for several generations.

Groups like Hamas can be transformed in real political parties and political partners--a reasonable example might be Sinn Fein. There are also similarities with the ANC.

The South African experience is instructive. First, most people believe that the ultimate outcome would be a horrific civil war. That didn't happen, largely because Mandala and DeKlerk understood what they had to do with their domestic constituencies in order to reach a peaceful settlement. Ian Shapiro is a political scientist who has done some outstanding work on comparing these three situations.