Full of Passionate Intensity: POLITICS THREAD

Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Nov 08, 2009 00:10:04

Hit 218 on the nose

All I know is this is going to make for some great TV ads next year

Er, they got to 220

Cao voted for it, guess he's trying in vain to get reelected

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Postby dajafi » Sun Nov 08, 2009 01:10:39

Maybe this is one of those points that hides in plain sight, but until this amendment vote tonight I don't think it had quite dawned on me that 2009 might have the strongest anti-abortion majority the House of Representatives has seen in... decades? Ever?

Probably through the Gingrich speakership, you had at least a handful, maybe more than a dozen Republicans who were supporters of abortion rights, plus the large majority of Democrats. Now there are, I'd guess, zero pro-choice Republicans in the House, and about a solid quarter of the Dem caucus is anti-choice.

Strange times.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Nov 08, 2009 01:22:21

I was looking at that. There have to be a number of pro-choice GOPers left in the House. Mike Castle has to be pro-choice, doesn't he? Mark Kirk? Leonard Lance?

The one thing that really seems to have mostly disappeared is pro-choice GOP womens. They've lost or retired. Nancy Johnson, Heather Wilson, Deborah Pryce. I think Judy Biggert has to be pro-choice, no? Bono's wife?

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Postby dajafi » Sun Nov 08, 2009 02:10:07

Yeah, wasn't thinking of Castle and Kirk (though they kind of make the point: it's easier today to see those guys as Republican senators than congressmen). But you're right that pro-choice Republican women are, if not gone from the party (Whitman is another), then at least gone from the caucus.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Nov 08, 2009 02:15:09

Jodi Rell I guess. Obviously the Maine women. Kay Bailey Hutchison is pro choice, at least sort of.

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Postby dajafi » Sun Nov 08, 2009 02:27:04

jerseyhoya wrote:Jodi Rell I guess. Obviously the Maine women. Kay Bailey Hutchison is pro choice, at least sort of.


Yeah, there are a few left in the Senate and there were a bunch more as of a few years ago (Specter, Chafee, I think Smith).

I get the sense Rell has been a good governor. She doesn't seem like much of a partisan, which is probably smart for a Republican in Connecticut.

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Postby swishnicholson » Sun Nov 08, 2009 02:56:43

jerseyhoya wrote:Well it's a district that is fairly swingy nationally. Gore won it in 2000, Bush won it in 2004, Obama won it in 2008. I'm sure Christie won it on Tuesday, probably by a lot. But it's definitely not as tough to defend as a ton of the other districts where Pelosi and Hoyer are looking for votes. Also what's the point of getting elected if you don't help carry out the agenda?

Adler has more than a million bucks in the bank and no opponent so far.


Adler's website "explains" that the bill doesn't contain enough measures to control fraud and abuse in the health care "system", although how he hopes to remedy this is unclear. Nearly every item on this site is designed to portray him him as a watchdog who has fought to control spending (except those touting the federal $s he's brought into his district). If I were a cynic I would believe that he supported the bill but did the calculus to figure he could cast a vote that would seem to be more on the side of fiscal restraint without actually defeating it.
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Postby drsmooth » Sun Nov 08, 2009 09:34:40

jerz, do you think there's anything to the notion that last tuesday's results (especially for Corzine & Bloomberg) signal that politicians of any stripe must distance themselves from the plutocrats or face dismissal at the polls?
Yes, but in a double utley you can put your utley on top they other guy's utley, and you're the winner. (Swish)

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Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:50:12

I think there might be a small bit to that, but most of it is just an anti-incumbent mood. Maybe that's intensified when the guy who is the incumbent is worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars and not feeling the same pain you are.

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Postby allentown » Sun Nov 08, 2009 15:12:15

jerseyhoya wrote:I was looking at that. There have to be a number of pro-choice GOPers left in the House. Mike Castle has to be pro-choice, doesn't he? Mark Kirk? Leonard Lance?

The one thing that really seems to have mostly disappeared is pro-choice GOP womens. They've lost or retired. Nancy Johnson, Heather Wilson, Deborah Pryce. I think Judy Biggert has to be pro-choice, no? Bono's wife?

This isn't strictly a pro-/anti-choice issue. There is also the very reasonable middle ground position that abortion is an intensely emotional issue on which society has yet to come to any consensus, so while it makes sense to be pro-choice in the sense of keeping abortion legal, it also makes sense to be anti-choice in the sense of tax $ not going for abortion and healthcare providers not being legally required to furnish abortions. That keeps it a personal/medical issue as it should be in this unsettled time. Anyone who can pay for an abortion should be able to get them. Pro-choice charities should be able to fund abortions for women who need but cannot afford one. The government just backs away and lets women and medical providers make their own decisions. This puts abortion, from a payment standpoint, in the same category as the alternative medicine choices that PTK apparently advocates.
We now know that Amaro really is running the Phillies. He and Monty seem to have ignored the committee.
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Postby allentown » Sun Nov 08, 2009 15:13:59

jerseyhoya wrote:I think there might be a small bit to that, but most of it is just an anti-incumbent mood. Maybe that's intensified when the guy who is the incumbent is worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars and not feeling the same pain you are.

There's also the issue of making promises that it turns out you are unable to keep, in the case of Corzine.
We now know that Amaro really is running the Phillies. He and Monty seem to have ignored the committee.
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Postby dajafi » Mon Nov 09, 2009 16:43:20


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Postby pacino » Mon Nov 09, 2009 18:52:30

allentown wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:I was looking at that. There have to be a number of pro-choice GOPers left in the House. Mike Castle has to be pro-choice, doesn't he? Mark Kirk? Leonard Lance?

The one thing that really seems to have mostly disappeared is pro-choice GOP womens. They've lost or retired. Nancy Johnson, Heather Wilson, Deborah Pryce. I think Judy Biggert has to be pro-choice, no? Bono's wife?

This isn't strictly a pro-/anti-choice issue. There is also the very reasonable middle ground position that abortion is an intensely emotional issue on which society has yet to come to any consensus, so while it makes sense to be pro-choice in the sense of keeping abortion legal, it also makes sense to be anti-choice in the sense of tax $ not going for abortion and healthcare providers not being legally required to furnish abortions. That keeps it a personal/medical issue as it should be in this unsettled time. Anyone who can pay for an abortion should be able to get them. Pro-choice charities should be able to fund abortions for women who need but cannot afford one. The government just backs away and lets women and medical providers make their own decisions. This puts abortion, from a payment standpoint, in the same category as the alternative medicine choices that PTK apparently advocates.

the actuality of abortion is it is quasi-illegal in many portions of this country, especially to poor and rural women. this is basically just a further slight against poor women with few options.
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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Nov 10, 2009 01:31:01

One of the worst, I thought, was the widespread characterization of Dede Scozzafava, the Republican nominee in New York's 23rd district, as a moderate. I realize that those of us in the media use that term to distinguish certain Republicans and Democrats from their more ideologically consistent colleagues, but in this case, the label was inappropriate.

Scozzafava doesn't only support abortion rights - often a marker for Republican "moderates" - she supports gay marriage. But she doesn't only support gay marriage; she supported President Barack Obama's stimulus proposal that not a single House Republican favored. But she didn't just support the stimulus package; she supports the Employee Free Choice Act (what opponents call "card check"), which is opposed by virtually the entire business community. And in the end, of course, she endorsed the Democrat in the race.

Scozzafava is a liberal Republican by any standard, and she should have been labeled as such. She is more liberal than every Republican in the House of Representatives and many Democrats.


Rothenberg on the lessons from Tuesday's elections. Really enjoyed this passage.

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Postby dajafi » Tue Nov 10, 2009 01:39:46

FWIW (and I have no idea WIW), Michael Smerconish disagrees:

On Thursday, I asked Scozzafava if she recognized the candidate that Limbaugh, Malkin, Pawlenty, and others had maligned.

"Absolutely not," she answered. "I know who I am. I'm not sure where they received a lot of the misinformation that they have on me. But I voted with my Republican leader 95 percent of the time in the State Assembly. I think that's a pretty good percentage."

The woman I spoke with at length Thursday afternoon sounded nothing like the granola-munching, tax-and-spend liberal I heard so much about these last few weeks. A supporter of John McCain in 2008, Scozzafava is the head of her party's policy review committee and a floor leader in the State Assembly. She had a succinct answer when I asked her to classify herself: "I'm a Republican."

"This is my party, too," she insisted. "There are a lot of moderate people - Republicans, like me - and I'm hearing from an awful lot of them. And I think the Republican Party needs to know if they don't have room for us and they don't want us working with them, we're going to find a way to work against them."

She acknowledged that many in the GOP would differ with her support for abortion rights and same-sex marriage. But she maintained that she approached those views from a conservative vantage point - a respect for individual liberties.

Her gun-rights bona fides, meanwhile, are beyond reproach. She received an A rating from the National Rifle Association in each election since 2002 (A-plus in 2000) and supported the New York Gun Owners of America in 100 percent of the relevant votes in 2002.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich cited Scozzafava's opposition to cap-and-trade legislation and energy-tax increases in his endorsement of her. This while Scozzafava's votes aligned with the EPL/Environmental Advocates - New York's self-proclaimed "environmental conscience" - 79 percent of the time since 2004.

Between 2000 and 2008, she adopted the perspective of the New York National Federation of Independent Businesses 68 percent of the time. (Her most recent rating was 75 percent.)


Of all the points in the Rothenberg article, I think the only one that wouldn't be within norms for a NYS Republican is support for the stimulus. (Well, and endorsing the Democrat--but from Scozzafava's perspective, I get why she didn't want to kiss those who'd kicked her hardest.) But that's likely explained by the fact that the district is, as I understand it, unusually reliant upon federal spending.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Nov 10, 2009 01:54:17

I think the total number of Republicans in the House and Senate who support the EFCA is 2. Although the guy from that district who Obama appointed Secretary of the Army was number three.

As for gay marriage, you and I might be in favor of it, but the majority of people in this country aren't, and a huge majority of Republicans in this country aren't. Whether you're in New York or Alabama, this isn't even close.

I also recall in the litany of things wrong with her was she wouldn't say whether or not she was in favor of the health care bill during the campaign.

She would have become, upon election, the most liberal member of the House Republican Caucus. It's unbelievable that those county chairs picked her.

Also, she was against cap and trade. This is the thing we're supposed to be happy about. The thing that proves her Republican bonafides on a tough issue. Whoopdie-fucking-doo. A whopping 4.5% of the House GOP caucus voted for cap and trade. 44 House Democrats voted against it. One of the 8 GOPers who voted for it was her predecessor in the seat who had a month earlier been tapped by Obama to be Secretary of the Army. Another (Mark Kirk) has come out in opposition to his vote because he has to win a GOP primary in Illinois.

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Postby pacino » Tue Nov 10, 2009 09:17:07

As for gay marriage, you and I might be in favor of it, but the majority of people in this country aren't, and a huge majority of Republicans in this country aren't. Whether you're in New York or Alabama, this isn't even close.

Actually it's QUITE close in many portions of this country, civil unions can easily pass in many portions of this country but is simply no longer the goal. Heck, civil unions have become the perceived middle ground.
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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Nov 10, 2009 21:25:32

Now that the gubernatorial election is over, Republicans in Burlington, Ocean and Camden Counties are starting to focus on recruiting someone to take on freshman U.S. Rep. John Adler (D-Cherry Hill) next year.

There is a deep bench of potential candidates, but some Republicans have one in mind who could clear the field: Philadelphia Eagles legend Jon Runyan, a Mount Laurel resident.

Sources tell PolitickerNJ.com that Assemblywoman Dawn Addiego (R-Evesham) - who knows Runyan because their children attend school together - has talked to him about running. Runyan, who is not currently active in the NFL but has not retired, has not ruled out a run. It is unclear, however, how serious the prospect is.

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Postby dajafi » Wed Nov 11, 2009 17:57:28

Ezra Klein vs. the filibuster:

The filibuster prevents reform of Social Security as surely as expansion of health-care reform. It's as bad for deficit hawks as it is for free-spenders. It's as cruel to the Employer Free Choice Act as it is to corporate tax cuts. Democrats don't hate the filibuster any more than Republicans. They just hate it at different times. The result, however, is that neither party can really enact its agenda when it's in the majority. Eventually, the two parties may tire of this. Or they may tire of seeing the Federal Reserve take the lead on bailouts and the Supreme Court take the lead on choice and the EPA take the lead on climate change and Congress become progressively less relevant. In that scenario, the two parties might get together and agree to end the filibuster at some point in the future -- say, six years, or a full Senate cycle.


I'm torn on this one myself. My small-c conservative suspects that the disruptions you'd see if, basically, the power to actually make policy could shift from Ron Wyden's wish list to Mike Enzi's as easily as it can from Boehner to Pelosi, would be pretty painful--plus the time of Congress might be mostly spent undoing what the other party did when they held the majority. OTOH, voters would have a much better idea what each party is really about where the rubber hits the road, which is good for small-d democracy.

The Senate isn't the Senate without its rules, including the filibuster. I guess what I'd really like to see is reversion back to the pre-1993 mode of use--meaning you can't pull it out for every small thing, or even every big thing.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Wed Nov 11, 2009 18:04:15

dajafi wrote:Ezra Klein vs. the filibuster:

The filibuster prevents reform of Social Security as surely as expansion of health-care reform. It's as bad for deficit hawks as it is for free-spenders. It's as cruel to the Employer Free Choice Act as it is to corporate tax cuts. Democrats don't hate the filibuster any more than Republicans. They just hate it at different times. The result, however, is that neither party can really enact its agenda when it's in the majority. Eventually, the two parties may tire of this. Or they may tire of seeing the Federal Reserve take the lead on bailouts and the Supreme Court take the lead on choice and the EPA take the lead on climate change and Congress become progressively less relevant. In that scenario, the two parties might get together and agree to end the filibuster at some point in the future -- say, six years, or a full Senate cycle.



No, no, no. Don't you realize that the gang of 14 are evil fuckers who should be drawn and quartered? Seriously, over on Redstate, one of the worst things you could say about a Republican was that he helped preserve the filibuster in gang of 14 compromise. I don't know if they say it all that much anymore. Funny thing, though. The gang of 14 doesn't appear all that popular on Dailykos either.

I like the filibuster. We need it. However, I would makes its use more costly--the old filibuster meant that as long as the filibuster was in effect, the Senate could not hold any other votes. Or, we could require that Senators actually hold the floor to avoid cloture.
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