Birthers, Deathers, and the Muddled Middle: POLITICS THREAD

by **TenuredVulture** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 20:13:17

Anytime anyone gets indignant about the constitution, my bs detector goes off the charts.

No one treats it like holy scripture, so let's stop pretending. It's a political document, a product of compromise, log rolling, and holding your nose so that the entire process wouldn't be derailed.

by **jeff2sf** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 22:27:47

Argh, lost my post...

As a guy in the center, I'm, obviously, pretty happy with Obama. Re:torture, what was he supposed to do? Send Cheney over to the Hague? Release the Gitmo people into the wild with an apology? This is complicated stuff. He stopped the bleeding, we're not going to do it again (under his watch) and that's about all the political capital he can spend on this right now. The pro-torturers are mad, the anti-torturers don't think he went far enough... usually that means the guy got it just right.

Re: executive powers, yeah I wish he'd relinquish every single thing Bush took over, but let's not make it sound like he's writing signing statements on every bill and talking about how he's the decider. He's the guy who's been criticized for being too deferential to Congress.

I wanted some sanity put back into the process, even if I didn't always agree with decisions made by the President, and darn it, he's nailing it.

by **FTN** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 23:07:46

lol peter schiff

by **Rococo4** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:16:49

jeff2sf wrote:Argh, lost my post...

As a guy in the center, I'm, obviously, pretty happy with Obama. Re:torture, what was he supposed to do? Send Cheney over to the Hague? Release the Gitmo people into the wild with an apology? This is complicated stuff. He stopped the bleeding, we're not going to do it again (under his watch) and that's about all the political capital he can spend on this right now. The pro-torturers are mad, the anti-torturers don't think he went far enough... usually that means the guy got it just right.

Re: executive powers, yeah I wish he'd relinquish every single thing Bush took over, but let's not make it sound like he's writing signing statements on every bill and talking about how he's the decider. He's the guy who's been criticized for being too deferential to Congress.

I wanted some sanity put back into the process, even if I didn't always agree with decisions made by the President, and darn it, he's nailing it.

youre obviously not "in the center" if you would "relinquish every single thing bush took over" or "obviously, pretty happy with obama."
edit: or using an Al Franken like "and darn it, he's nailing it" finish

by **jeff2sf** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:25:55

Ah, I'm probably not in the center, I guess, but I gotta figure I'm going to vote Republican by 2016 - I'm getting richer and richer.

But come on, the executive powers Bush took (which conservative Werthless hates) were pretty extreme.

Being pretty happy with a president doesn't make one a liberal.

by **Rococo4** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:31:46

No, being happy with A president doesnt make one liberal (or conservative for that matter) but being happy with THIS president, along with the other statements re: bush executive powers, quoting al franken, does not put one in the political center

for the record, i am getting poorer and poorer by the day, but i still cant envison a scenario where it leads me to voting for a Democrat

by **jeff2sf** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:34:15

Rococo4 wrote:No, being happy with A president doesnt make one liberal (or conservative for that matter) but being happy with THIS president, along with the other statements re: bush executive powers, quoting al franken, does not put one in the political center

for the record, i am getting poorer and poorer by the day, but i still cant envison a scenario where it leads me to voting for a Democrat

I know, sooner or later we've gotta start voting our interests, rocco my boy. Unless you think it's your dumbassery that has you unemployed.

I didn't quote Al Franken, I don't know any of his lines except "Gosh darn it people like me".

by **Rococo4** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:38:43

jeff2sf wrote:
Rococo4 wrote:No, being happy with A president doesnt make one liberal (or conservative for that matter) but being happy with THIS president, along with the other statements re: bush executive powers, quoting al franken, does not put one in the political center

for the record, i am getting poorer and poorer by the day, but i still cant envison a scenario where it leads me to voting for a Democrat

I know, sooner or later we've gotta start voting our interests, rocco my boy. Unless you think it's your dumbassery that has you unemployed.

I didn't quote Al Franken, I don't know any of his lines except "Gosh darn it people like me".

There are more important things to me in voting than how much money i make...but i dont really accept the notion that if I am poor that voting for Democrats will help me. That is what they want me to think, of course.

by **jeff2sf** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:45:11

I know bro, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, personal responsibility and all that. Yay team. (remember, I learned all of the Republican code, I'm an MBA after all).

by **jeff2sf** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 00:47:52

I should point out here, lest smoothie accuses me of being flip, that I'm sure the job loss was no fault of your own, that I know being unemployed sucks, and that I hope you get a job tomorrow.

by **Rococo4** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 01:13:38

jeff2sf wrote:I should point out here, lest smoothie accuses me of being flip, that I'm sure the job loss was no fault of your own, that I know being unemployed sucks, and that I hope you get a job tomorrow.

i didnt take any offense to that. i actually probably am getting a job tomorrow.

by **Rococo4** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 01:14:46

jeff2sf wrote:I know bro, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, personal responsibility and all that. Yay team. (remember, I learned all of the Republican code, I'm an MBA after all).

thats not really what i am saying. i am just saying there is more that goes into my vote than how it affects my taxes or whatever.

by **pacino** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 06:57:03

Rococo4 wrote:
jeff2sf wrote:
Rococo4 wrote:No, being happy with A president doesnt make one liberal (or conservative for that matter) but being happy with THIS president, along with the other statements re: bush executive powers, quoting al franken, does not put one in the political center

for the record, i am getting poorer and poorer by the day, but i still cant envison a scenario where it leads me to voting for a Democrat

I know, sooner or later we've gotta start voting our interests, rocco my boy. Unless you think it's your dumbassery that has you unemployed.

I didn't quote Al Franken, I don't know any of his lines except "Gosh darn it people like me".

There are more important things to me in voting than how much money i make...but i dont really accept the notion that if I am poor that voting for Democrats will help me. That is what they want me to think, of course.

we've evil like that

by **Werthless** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 08:12:57

FTN wrote:lol peter schiff

I like people like him. I wish there were more professional people making runs for Congress.

by **drsmooth** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 08:42:39

jeff2sf wrote:I should point out here, lest smoothie accuses me of being flip, that I'm sure the job loss was no fault of your own, that I know being unemployed sucks, and that I hope you get a job tomorrow.

you're on fire here, jeff. I fear for brother Rocco, who does not appear to have ever heard the aphorism attributed to Churchill re: the sensible arc of a man's lifetime political leanings.

for the record, i feel brains are overrated.

by **Werthless** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 13:49:42

David Brooks column

The populist tendency has always used the same sort of rhetoric: for the ordinary people and against the fat cats and the educated class; for the small towns and against the financial centers.

And it has always had the same morality, which the historian Michael Kazin has called producerism. The idea is that free labor is the essence of Americanism. Hard-working ordinary people, who create wealth in material ways, are the moral backbone of the country. In this free, capitalist nation, people should be held responsible for their own output. Money should not be redistributed to those who do not work, and it should not be sucked off by condescending, manipulative elites.

Barack Obama leads a government of the highly educated. His movement includes urban politicians, academics, Hollywood donors and information-age professionals. In his first few months, he has fused federal power with Wall Street, the auto industry, the health care industries and the energy sector.

Given all of this, it was guaranteed that he would spark a populist backlash, regardless of his skin color. And it was guaranteed that this backlash would be ill mannered, conspiratorial and over the top — since these movements always are, whether they were led by Huey Long, Father Coughlin or anybody else.

by **Barry Jive** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 13:54:41

I don't entirely agree with his initial premise, and he doesn't completely back it up, but that was a great column.

by **Werthless** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 13:57:33

Barry Jive wrote:I don't entirely agree with his initial premise, and he doesn't completely back it up, but that was a great column.

I agree. The piece was about perceptions more than about facts, thus it's perfectly reasonable for people to disagree. I posted it because it reflected some of my thinking I haven't been able to put into words very well.

by **FTN** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 14:02:10

Werthless wrote:
FTN wrote:lol peter schiff

I like people like him. I wish there were more professional people making runs for Congress.

but the problem is, he doesn't have any clue about anything other than his fiscal policy. buchanon asked him about troops overseas, he just said bring them home because we can't afford it. he was asked about a public healthcare option and he said "we can't afford it, we're broke" which is his answer for everything.

he has some good ideas. but i dont think he really understands what being a senator entails. i disagree with perma-bears like him who always think the sky is falling. like i said, some of his concepts are decent, but i just dont think he stands much of a chance.

by **jeff2sf** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 14:06:08

Rococo4 wrote:
jeff2sf wrote:I should point out here, lest smoothie accuses me of being flip, that I'm sure the job loss was no fault of your own, that I know being unemployed sucks, and that I hope you get a job tomorrow.

i didnt take any offense to that. i actually probably am getting a job tomorrow.

I missed this, congratulations if it happens, let us know.

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Birthers, Deathers, and the Muddled Middle: POLITICS THREAD