Rolling politics thread...

Postby TomatoPie » Thu Jun 21, 2007 19:38:32

BuddyGroom wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:
Sadly, he shares with his fellow Democrats the misbegotten notion that tax increases are good, which has never been the case in my lifetime.


So you don't believe that the "luxury tax" increases included in the 1993 budget didn't play a role in producing the deficit reduction that followed - and ultimately the balanced budgets the country enjoyed under a Democratic president. (To be clear, I am not arguing that the 1993 budget solely produced those results - a booming economy and later budgets, most reflecting compromise between the Clinton White House and Republican Congress, also played huge roles.)

Here's a question I always want to ask people who reflexively oppose tax increases - Republicans typically argue that tax increases do not increase government revenues (because people adjust their spending/investing patterns, et al) but tax cuts often do increase revenues because they stimulate the economic activity that produces tax revenue.

Okay, so if tax increases never increase revenue but tax cuts always do, what would happen if we kept cutting taxes all the way down to 0%?

There is a point, in other words, where tax cuts surely will reduce revenues. As for tax increases increasing revenue, the 1993 budget, again, offers ample proof that, if you consider increased revenues desirable, tax increases can produce them.


I'm glad you asked.

Tax rates affect behavior. For the sake of simplicity, let's discuss income taxes first.

I thin we can agree that there is a rate at which tax revenues are maximized. It is more than 0% and less than 100%. This is why I say that in my lifetime, there has never been a bad tax cut or a good tax increase, because IMO our tax rates have always been well above the level which will produce optimal tax revenues.

If tax rates are 40% and we cut them to 35%, the immediate term effect will be a drop in revenues. Tax rates affect behaviors, but not instantly. The lower rate encourages more economic activity and thus grows the taxable base, and this effect compounds over time. Over time, the effect of tax rate cuts is to grow the tax base so that tax revenues rise.

The evidence is clear when you look at revenues in the wake of the Bush tax cuts. A drop at first, followed by dramatic increases in tax revenues. I know this troubles those who like punitive tax rates for the wealthy, but its undeniable.

I don't know what the optimal rate is, since we are so far above it. I would guess it should be around 15%.

Further, I'm not sure it's desirable to maximize government tax revenues. For certain, it's not desirable to balance the budget. Read Ken Fisher's new book to understand why.

You can be pretty sure that in your lifetime, we will never come close to having tax rates that are too low. We could cut them in half and they'd still be too high.

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Postby TomatoPie » Thu Jun 21, 2007 19:40:12

drsmooth wrote:It would be marvelous if TP would offer his opinion why the WSJ editoriate find Prexy Candidate Bloomberg so odious - a businessman who actually is/was a success at both business and governing (unlike the fellow currently holding the office).


The WSJ is scornful of the liberal MSM and their values. Bloomie embodies the MSM values and is their darling, and hence the WSJ doesn't like him.

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Postby drsmooth » Thu Jun 21, 2007 20:21:56

TomatoPie wrote:The WSJ is scornful of the liberal MSM and their values. Bloomie embodies the MSM values and is their darling, and hence the WSJ doesn't like him.


Thank you TP, and I understand you are explaining, rather than defending, the Journal's editorial take. I do understand you to mean WSJ editors don't like Bloomberg.

Would you or anyone know if it is Murdoch's practice to leave deadwo- er, incumbent editors in place when he takes a rag over?
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Postby BuddyGroom » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:59:30

TomatoPie wrote:
I'm glad you asked.

Tax rates affect behavior. For the sake of simplicity, let's discuss income taxes first.

I thin we can agree that there is a rate at which tax revenues are maximized. It is more than 0% and less than 100%. This is why I say that in my lifetime, there has never been a bad tax cut or a good tax increase, because IMO our tax rates have always been well above the level which will produce optimal tax revenues.

If tax rates are 40% and we cut them to 35%, the immediate term effect will be a drop in revenues. Tax rates affect behaviors, but not instantly. The lower rate encourages more economic activity and thus grows the taxable base, and this effect compounds over time. Over time, the effect of tax rate cuts is to grow the tax base so that tax revenues rise.

The evidence is clear when you look at revenues in the wake of the Bush tax cuts. A drop at first, followed by dramatic increases in tax revenues. I know this troubles those who like punitive tax rates for the wealthy, but its undeniable.

I don't know what the optimal rate is, since we are so far above it. I would guess it should be around 15%.

Further, I'm not sure it's desirable to maximize government tax revenues. For certain, it's not desirable to balance the budget. Read Ken Fisher's new book to understand why.

You can be pretty sure that in your lifetime, we will never come close to having tax rates that are too low. We could cut them in half and they'd still be too high.


Good reply. Pretty clearly, you and I find different levels of government activism desirable, so we will disagree on what levels of revenue and tax rates are optimal. But I appreciated the serious, intellectually-honest answer.
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Postby Disco Stu » Sun Jun 24, 2007 00:06:21

Is there anyway I can kick BuddyGroom and TomatoPie out of my thread and back to Philliesphans? I think I should have moderatorship over my own threads at least.
Check The Good Phight, you might learn something.

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Postby hoya » Sun Jun 24, 2007 02:37:37

The fact that Bloomberg is non-partisan and not a member of the political establishment (no thanks to Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Clinton . . .) gives him such a huge leg up with me that his policy side would need to heavily trail other candidates for me to not support him. Since I'm not too impressed with anyone else there, gotta be Bloomberg.

Breaking up the ridiculous Dem-GOP dominance and bickering has the potential for such immense value that it would make me sad if a vast majority of intelligent voters didn't side with Bloomberg (but yea, I know they probably won't).

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Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Jun 24, 2007 08:45:59

The fascination with 3rd parties and independent candidates, especially when the major institutions of power appear to have abandoned us is understandable.

But, like the media, the parties have an essential role to play to keep the US political system running. It is interesting that in political science, parties are viewed so differently than they are everywhere else, but I do think the political scientists have it right--in a federal system with checks and balances, some kind of institution is necessary to get things done.

Bloomberg may be a great guy, and his policy positions may be spot on. But if he runs as an independent candidate, he won't change a thing, and he is likely to be a spoiler, where we can say hello to four or eight years to President Thompson.

Again, I still think it is possible to run an insurgent primary and be successful, especially in a still crowded field where I think many are looking for an alternative to Hillary.
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Postby VoxOrion » Sun Jun 24, 2007 09:28:34

The winner-take-all political structure of our government will prevent any third party candidate from accomplishing anything other than making a statement. I don't buy this "allowing someone else to win" attitude - people vote for who they want - Perot arguably may have cost Bush 41 the election (I'm not convinced of this - Perot's backers appeared to be a lot of young people, folks who tend to vote Democrat when they bother to vote at all), but it doesn't change the fact that more people wanted Clinton for president than either Perot or Bush.

Nonetheless, the only way to successfully change the political climate is to take over one of the existing parties from within. I think Lincoln will be the last to ever pull off the new party thing.

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Postby TomatoPie » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:37:49

Bloomberg knows he cannot win, so to run would be only as a spoiler. And since the Dem nominee is a shoe-in, absent a strong 3rd party from the left, I agree that Bloomberg's effect would be like a less nutty Nader.

Could he be angling for some major concession from the Dems to pull him back in? Voop?

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Postby drsmooth » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:47:24

Phan Paul wrote:The fascination with 3rd parties and independent candidates, especially when the major institutions of power appear to have abandoned us is understandable.

But, like the media, the parties have an essential role to play to keep the US political system running.


the role may be essential, but the existing parties have no special claim to participation that I'm aware of.

Vox, your contention may be true enough for the next 1 or 2 federal elections, but I'm unconvinced either party has the kind of chokehold on vote-gathering that you suggest, or any certainty of tightening/maintaining it.
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Postby dajafi » Sun Jun 24, 2007 14:15:08

Bloomberg as kingmaker?

MAYOR MICHAEL R. BLOOMBERG of New York insisted yet again last week that he did not intend to run for president in 2008, even as he left the Republican Party to become an independent. Then, on Friday, he tweaked his language somewhat, simply saying, “I’m not going to be president.”

Which opens the door to a Swiftian modest proposal, one that might appeal to any billionaire independent presidential candidate who knows the art of a deal: Rather than try to win the White House outright — a long shot — an independent candidate could instead try for a king-making (or queen-making) bloc of votes in the Electoral College.

In doing so, a moneyed candidate like Mr. Bloomberg could advance his post-partisan national agenda — and gain a great deal of power — by introducing coalition politics to America’s system of government, through a power-sharing plan that catapults either the Republican or Democratic nominee to the presidency. Here’s how it might work:

With the nation divided into red and blue as it has been in the last two presidential elections, all a rich, self-financed candidate would have to do is win a big state (or two) to ensure having a king-making bloc of electoral votes: say, Florida (the decisive state in 2000), or Ohio (2004), or maybe New York (Mr. Bloomberg’s home state), or California (that of his friend, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger).

Mr. Bloomberg spent $84 million in 2005 to win re-election as mayor. In 2008, a wealthy candidate could spend five times that (or 10 times, as some Bloomberg associates suggest he might do) to run for president. Under this hypothetical scenario, the money would support a targeted advertising campaign to sell an Electoral College strategy to voters. (You wouldn’t even need to get on the ballot throughout the country.)
...
Mr. Bloomberg’s aides say he has no plans to be a kingmaker. Yet suppose an independent candidate with unlimited means carried New York in the general election on Nov. 5, 2008, winning a sharply divided vote among three home-state politicians (with Mrs. Clinton as the Democratic nominee and Rudolph W. Giuliani as the Republican). And suppose the Democratic and Republican nominees split the other 49 states and the District of Columbia in a way that left both just shy of an Electoral College majority (270 votes) without New York’s 31 votes.

With his king-making bloc of votes, an independent candidate could broker a deal with one of the candidates, European- or Israeli-style. Cabinet posts could be divvied up (say, Senator Chuck Hagel as defense secretary). Specific policies and spending commitments would be agreed to (say, plans for immigration and health care, two top national priorities for the mayor).

NOW, here’s where one or two or 100 lawyers come in. This reform-minded disbursement of power could be guaranteed by a legally executed contract with a hefty cash bond if the eventual president reneges. (There’s nothing barring this in the Constitution.)

The clock would be ticking. A deal to throw the decisive electors to one candidate or the other must be struck in the six weeks before several hundred electors cast their votes in their individual states on Dec. 15, 2008.


This strikes me as incredibly far-fetched, and it disregards another factor: the incredible pressure Bloomberg supporters who are renegades from one party or another would come under from their old co-partisans not to "spoil" the chances of the Democrat or Republican.

But consider hoya's post. He's a smart guy who follows this stuff pretty closely, and he's desperate for some kind of change to the established political setup. Then think about all the Democrats (like me) who will find it impossible or nearly impossible to support Hillary Clinton and the perpetuation of the Two-Family Presidency. And consider Republicans who will want someone with managerial competency and a demonstrated commitment to responsible budgets. Then remember how much persuasion $500 million (used, btw, by the smartest people in the industry) can buy.

It's not impossible.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Jun 24, 2007 16:16:28

drsmooth wrote:
Phan Paul wrote:The fascination with 3rd parties and independent candidates, especially when the major institutions of power appear to have abandoned us is understandable.

But, like the media, the parties have an essential role to play to keep the US political system running.


the role may be essential, but the existing parties have no special claim to participation that I'm aware of.



I am not suggesting that the current parties are functioning as they should, though in important ways, they are. You vote for a Republican, you get Republican policies. You vote for a Democrat, and you get Democratic policies. If you consider much of what the Bush administration has accomplished, you'll see how for the first 5 or so years of his Presidency, Bush used the party mechanism to get much of his agenda through. You don't have to like it, but Bush more or less did (or at least tried) what he said he would do during the campaign. And, it has been pretty clear to the voters that if you want to support Pres. Bush, vote for Republicans for House and Senate.

In fact, the real problem with American politics today is not the party system, nor is it even partisanship. It's interest groups and money, which have emerged as powerful entities because the parties are much weaker than they've been in the past.

Consider a typical campaign. You're running for office as a Democrat. In your district, you've got roughly 35 percent party loyalists, leaving 30 percent of the voters up for grabs. To be competitive in such circumstances, you've got to raise millions of dollars from interest groups. And that's where the real corruption lies. Stronger party organizations could limit much of that influence.

Not to be all conspiritorial about all this, but it strikes me that a Bloomberg candidacy will do more to strengthen American plutocracy than 8 years of Bush, further entrenching the power of fabously wealthy individuals and families.

The problem with the current Presidential cycle isn't the parties, it's the personality cults that surround the major candidates. And here, Bloomberg is no different. Bloomberg as kingmaker does in fact sound far fetched, but it is rather frightening none the less. American democracy is fragile, and I suspect, such a move will mark its end. Our Republic does seem to be going the way of the Venetian Republic.
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Postby TomatoPie » Sun Jun 24, 2007 16:31:19

Phan Paul wrote: Bloomberg as kingmaker does in fact sound far fetched, but it is rather frightening none the less. American democracy is fragile, and I suspect, such a move will mark its end. Our Republic does seem to be going the way of the Venetian Republic.


Our Republic survived the Civil War, it survived the New Deal, it survived Watergate, it didn't blink when Clinton soiled the office.

I don't think having a superrich guy tilt an election will ruin us, either. Money has always been a kingmaker, now it will just be more upfront.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Jun 24, 2007 16:33:13

TomatoPie wrote:
Phan Paul wrote: Bloomberg as kingmaker does in fact sound far fetched, but it is rather frightening none the less. American democracy is fragile, and I suspect, such a move will mark its end. Our Republic does seem to be going the way of the Venetian Republic.


Our Republic survived the Civil War, it survived the New Deal, it survived Watergate, it didn't blink when Clinton soiled the office.

I don't think having a superrich guy tilt an election will ruin us, either. Money has always been a kingmaker, now it will just be more upfront.


Frankly, I think the Republic is already a mere shell of itself.
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Postby dajafi » Sun Jun 24, 2007 16:57:19

Phan Paul wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:
Phan Paul wrote: Bloomberg as kingmaker does in fact sound far fetched, but it is rather frightening none the less. American democracy is fragile, and I suspect, such a move will mark its end. Our Republic does seem to be going the way of the Venetian Republic.


Our Republic survived the Civil War, it survived the New Deal, it survived Watergate, it didn't blink when Clinton soiled the office.

I don't think having a superrich guy tilt an election will ruin us, either. Money has always been a kingmaker, now it will just be more upfront.


Frankly, I think the Republic is already a mere shell of itself.


I find this very hard to argue against. Just the general indifference to the crimes against the Constitution (as well as the political consensus) of the last seven years makes the case pretty strongly. Most Republicans have seemed to accept the abuses of the Bush administration because of Go Team thinking, and most Democrats have seemed more interested in holding on to the little bit of power they had, and have, than pushing back hard in defense of what gave us two hundred-plus good years.

What excites me about the prospect of a Bloomberg candidacy is that it could serve as a vessel to re-engage people in the process, to mount a defense of the Constitution and our governance traditions that have been eroded almost into dust by now. No, Bloomberg isn't the perfect champion for this--but a perfect champion probably wouldn't have the money. And he might not run the principled campaign I'd want to see. (He didn't really do that here, though in 2005 he did offer a lot of policy specifics that I thought were generally pretty strong... you just had to look for them a little.)

But, as I've written before, I think we're so close to the edge of a political abyss that I'm willing to take a chance. The Republicans don't have anyone remotely qualified for the presidency. Giuliani's a frigging sociopath and a worse judge of character than Bush; Romney makes Bill Clinton look like a paragon of principle and consistency; "TV's Fred" Thompson is a bad joke; McCain's judgment is terrible and his temperament is worse.

The Democrats are a little better, but a Hillary Clinton nomination victory will show that the effect of interest groups and money that Phan Paul discussed is as strong in our party as it is in the other one. And I think it's increasingly likely she will be the nominee. She might win with 51 percent or lose with 49 percent, but her presidency would be, at best, four years (no way she'd win twice) of the same poll-tested pabulum Bill offered, and I suspect she'd start another war for political purposes--as the twisted logic of our politics probably would force many Democrats to do.

So I ask: what do we really have to lose? Bloomberg/Anyone '08. [/i]

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Postby Phan In Phlorida » Sun Jun 24, 2007 19:52:32

The return of the whig party!
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Postby TomatoPie » Sun Jun 24, 2007 20:09:30

dajafi wrote:
Phan Paul wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:
Phan Paul wrote: Bloomberg as kingmaker does in fact sound far fetched, but it is rather frightening none the less. American democracy is fragile, and I suspect, such a move will mark its end. Our Republic does seem to be going the way of the Venetian Republic.


Our Republic survived the Civil War, it survived the New Deal, it survived Watergate, it didn't blink when Clinton soiled the office.

I don't think having a superrich guy tilt an election will ruin us, either. Money has always been a kingmaker, now it will just be more upfront.


Frankly, I think the Republic is already a mere shell of itself.


I find this very hard to argue against. Just the general indifference to the crimes against the Constitution (as well as the political consensus) of the last seven years makes the case pretty strongly. Most Republicans have seemed to accept the abuses of the Bush administration because of Go Team thinking, and most Democrats have seemed more interested in holding on to the little bit of power they had, and have, than pushing back hard in defense of what gave us two hundred-plus good years.

What excites me about the prospect of a Bloomberg candidacy is that it could serve as a vessel to re-engage people in the process, to mount a defense of the Constitution and our governance traditions that have been eroded almost into dust by now.

But, as I've written before, I think we're so close to the edge of a political abyss that I'm willing to take a chance.

Oy.

I'm no longer a fan of Dub, and I truly was for a while.

That said, I'm alarmed at the level of hyperbole coming from such a usually level-headed source. Dub and Dick and Karl are not Nazis, the Antichrist, nor even evil incarnate. Their governance pales next to the Clintons, to Nixon, and to LBJ in terms of corruption and misuse of power.

Today, Dub is powerless. Does that not speak to the separation of powers and checks and balances?

Relax, this is nothing. You are gonna look back and say "what was I so exercised about?" just as I now say to myself over the Clinton impeachment.

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Postby jemagee » Sun Jun 24, 2007 20:14:14

Yeah, the suspension of civil rights in the name of security that the bush white house got away with really does pale to a president getting a hummer.

Not to mention that wonderful job they did with FEMA and what happened in Louisiana.

But they were just minority folks so we can just forget about all that, huh?

Dude could be the least intelligent president elected, ever...but that's more a commentary on our country and the electorate and the slow corruption of the political process where the best and brightest no longer have interest
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Postby kimbatiste » Sun Jun 24, 2007 20:44:37

TP-

I usually find you well reasoned and always a well informed conservative. But your continued hatred of Clinton is over the top. How can you say that corruption of this Presidency pales compared to that of Clinton's? Not only are we losing men and women by the truck load but we are paying extortionist prices to Bush crony corporations to rebuild Iraq. We have a government that unabashedly turns the Department of Justice into a big thank you card (at least Clinton usually restricted it to nights in the Lincoln bedroom).

But honestly, I understand thinking Clinton was a scumbag, I understand being fundamentally in favor of tax cuts instead of increases and I understand, though feel it is misguided, a more hawkish approach to national defense. That being said, why do Republicans always feel the need to attack the principles and methods of the Clinton administration but not the results.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Jun 24, 2007 20:48:57

TomatoPie wrote:
dajafi wrote:
Phan Paul wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:
Phan Paul wrote: Bloomberg as kingmaker does in fact sound far fetched, but it is rather frightening none the less. American democracy is fragile, and I suspect, such a move will mark its end. Our Republic does seem to be going the way of the Venetian Republic.


Our Republic survived the Civil War, it survived the New Deal, it survived Watergate, it didn't blink when Clinton soiled the office.

I don't think having a superrich guy tilt an election will ruin us, either. Money has always been a kingmaker, now it will just be more upfront.


Frankly, I think the Republic is already a mere shell of itself.


I find this very hard to argue against. Just the general indifference to the crimes against the Constitution (as well as the political consensus) of the last seven years makes the case pretty strongly. Most Republicans have seemed to accept the abuses of the Bush administration because of Go Team thinking, and most Democrats have seemed more interested in holding on to the little bit of power they had, and have, than pushing back hard in defense of what gave us two hundred-plus good years.

What excites me about the prospect of a Bloomberg candidacy is that it could serve as a vessel to re-engage people in the process, to mount a defense of the Constitution and our governance traditions that have been eroded almost into dust by now.

But, as I've written before, I think we're so close to the edge of a political abyss that I'm willing to take a chance.

Oy.

I'm no longer a fan of Dub, and I truly was for a while.

That said, I'm alarmed at the level of hyperbole coming from such a usually level-headed source. Dub and Dick and Karl are not Nazis, the Antichrist, nor even evil incarnate. Their governance pales next to the Clintons, to Nixon, and to LBJ in terms of corruption and misuse of power.

Today, Dub is powerless. Does that not speak to the separation of powers and checks and balances?

Relax, this is nothing. You are gonna look back and say "what was I so exercised about?" just as I now say to myself over the Clinton impeachment.


Bush/Clinton are a symptom, not a cause. The whole spectacle of American politics changes, but in the end, guys who are unelected by anyone make the rules. There's no conspiracy here--it's all done out in the open. Huge chunks of monetary and financial policy are made by unelected and unaccountable central banks, things like Basel II make policy at the international level.

THe financial markets are increasingly non-transparent. In essence, I thinik the future is something like what is happening in China right now. This has been going on for some time--whether you call it a military-industrial complex or I C. Wright Mills's power elite, democracy is really at the level of an American Idol contest.
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