livestock, lipstick, and liquidity: politics thread

Postby swishnicholson » Fri Sep 26, 2008 18:46:27

dajafi wrote:
The "world opinion" consideration is not zero, but the truth is that America has too big of a market, too mighty a military, and too influential a culture for the world to give us a timeout, regardless of who's in charge. And I think McCain, while perhaps not as palatable to your average Frenchy or Deutchlander or Swede as Obama, is more than capable of winning over world opinion, all things being equal.


I think it is underestimated how much of an uphill battle McCain would face in doing so. While all of us have received great assistance in parsing the vast differences between McCain and Bush or your standard Republican, I don't think the populations of most foreign countries have been so fortunate. Obama, on other hand, stands out clearly as a change of direction. While I hardly see this converting any terrorists in training, I can see it being very valuable among our traditional democratic allies, whose leaders will find it much easier to come to agreement with the United States knowing that the leader is held in higher regard by their populations. I feel like currently it is difficult to arrive at even mutually beneficial agreements due to the acrimony felt toward Bush, and that it would take a long time for McCain to make this evaporate, and a much shorter time for Obama.

I respect both candidates, despite the efforts of their campaigns, particularly McCain's, to make me shed this respect. In considering two qualified candidates a difference such as this becomes more important. I can see how the consideration of this would prove greatly annoying to McCain supporters, since it basically relies on the facts that Obama is black and a Democrat. But I think in this situation these facts drawn on as a support for Obama's candidacy become substantive, rather than knee-jerk.

Needless to say (I think), this argument in his favor would mean nothing if I didn't think he was well-qualified to handle all other aspects of the presidency.
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Postby VoxOrion » Fri Sep 26, 2008 19:00:16

karn wrote:Each person does represent a separate case, but when clearly qualified persons -regardless of age, race, or gender- are being held up as unqualified for something as specious and arbitrary as 'lack of experience', it will always suggest to me some kind of prejudice- which can just as equally be gender-biased, ageist, or even anti-intellectual in its nature.


Again, how is lack of experience arbitrary or specious? What is the prejudice being used when one disqualifies a teaching candidate for lack of experience? Or a medical doctor? Or a train engineer? Are you saying qualifications for being president are only related to what kind of guy or gal you are? That can't be your only qualifier for Obama.

Furthermore, when you add a second candidate - whether it's for a teaching, medical, train driver, or president, comparing the experience level of the two candidates is responsible, not arbitrary or specious.

I'm not arguing that one cannot become a teacher or doctor or whatever if you've never done it before - everyone starts somewhere. Aren't there times when experience matters, or is it always an irrational prejudice?
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Postby VoxOrion » Fri Sep 26, 2008 19:03:31

dajafi wrote:
VoxOrion wrote:Cohen does a good job of turning Obama's clutching God and guns statement into an essay (makes you wonder how hard it really is to apply the clutching comment to what those on the left really think). It's solid ideological psychoanalysis and sounds pretty lame.

All the way down to the cheap shot about a passport. This guy writes like the invisible liberal boogeyman the right wing talkers are always carrying on about.


This could easily turn into one of those arguments you and I both hate, so I'm tempted just to let it drop... though, by posting this, I've already not done so.

But beyond slagging the guy as a libburl elitist (and totally mischaracterizing the "guns and religion" comment, which wasn't so much the "aha! lefties hate Real Americans!" confirmation moment you might be looking for as an observation--obviously an impolitic one, maybe/maybe notan incorrect one--about how people respond to an economy that gleefully left them behind), I'm curious about your take on his substantive point: that unilateralism, in any sphere of activity we might consider, hasn't gone well for this country over the last few years. And that the problems we're going to face in the years ahead seem particularly ill-suited for going it alone.


I disagree that there is a substantive point in the first place. Cohen presents a boogey man, attaches all manner of evil to it, then says that anyone who he assigns the boogey man is bad news.

In his view unilateralism has gone badly, but he created a unilateralism that can't go well. It's a rah rah piece for folks who already agree with his premesis and don't question the validity of his definitions or the conclusions he draws in order to set up his point.
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Postby swishnicholson » Fri Sep 26, 2008 19:08:13

So, you know, Jimmy Carter. Everyone hates him, or at least his presidency. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter. Sure the economy was in the tank, but a lot of that was due to oil markets he couldn't control, and we've had a lot of recessions since then that didn't stick to the presiding Commander-in chief. The hostage crisis sucked, but it was hardly more devastating than, say, Somalia or the Cole explosion or the Marines in Beirut, all "humiliations" that were hardly personified by the standing President.

On the other hand, he didn't get us involved in any wars, he drew the Soviets into Afghanistan and set the stage for their downfall, Egypt for a while actually looked like it was in our camp, reliance on foreign oil decreased, no one prominent in the administration that I remember went to jail, and he didn't pork any interns.

But he's still probably at the top of the list for worst presidents since WWII, and we've had some strong competitors since. Is everyone still pissed about the Panama canal?

I won't be hurt if this is totally ignored, but mountainphan got me to thinking before I logged in and his posts were ignored, and I'm not such a rebel as to create another thread with a political bent.
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Postby The Red Tornado » Fri Sep 26, 2008 19:19:49

swishnicholson wrote:So, you know, Jimmy Carter. Everyone hates him, or at least his presidency. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter. Sure the economy was in the tank, but a lot of that was due to oil markets he couldn't control, and we've had a lot of recessions since then that didn't stick to the presiding Commander-in chief. The hostage crisis sucked, but it was hardly more devastating than, say, Somalia or the Cole explosion or the Marines in Beirut, all "humiliations" that were hardly personified by the standing President.

On the other hand, he didn't get us involved in any wars, he drew the Soviets into Afghanistan and set the stage for their downfall, Egypt for a while actually looked like it was in our camp, reliance on foreign oil decreased, no one prominent in the administration that I remember went to jail, and he didn't pork any interns.

But he's still probably at the top of the list for worst presidents since WWII, and we've had some strong competitors since. Is everyone still pissed about the Panama canal?

I won't be hurt if this is totally ignored, but mountainphan got me to thinking before I logged in and his posts were ignored, and I'm not such a rebel as to create another thread with a political bent.


I was 6 when Carter took office and even I can recall the animosity towards him when he left office. I think the main criticism of Carter was that he didnt delegate enough and took things that went poorly to much to heart. Even Bush can somehow slough off anything that goes bad as something that wasn't his fault. Somehow all the problems of the late 70's were attributed to him.
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Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Sep 26, 2008 19:53:42

The Red Tornado wrote:
swishnicholson wrote:So, you know, Jimmy Carter. Everyone hates him, or at least his presidency. Left wing, right wing, it doesn't really matter. Sure the economy was in the tank, but a lot of that was due to oil markets he couldn't control, and we've had a lot of recessions since then that didn't stick to the presiding Commander-in chief. The hostage crisis sucked, but it was hardly more devastating than, say, Somalia or the Cole explosion or the Marines in Beirut, all "humiliations" that were hardly personified by the standing President.

On the other hand, he didn't get us involved in any wars, he drew the Soviets into Afghanistan and set the stage for their downfall, Egypt for a while actually looked like it was in our camp, reliance on foreign oil decreased, no one prominent in the administration that I remember went to jail, and he didn't pork any interns.

But he's still probably at the top of the list for worst presidents since WWII, and we've had some strong competitors since. Is everyone still pissed about the Panama canal?

I won't be hurt if this is totally ignored, but mountainphan got me to thinking before I logged in and his posts were ignored, and I'm not such a rebel as to create another thread with a political bent.


I was 6 when Carter took office and even I can recall the animosity towards him when he left office. I think the main criticism of Carter was that he didnt delegate enough and took things that went poorly to much to heart. Even Bush can somehow slough off anything that goes bad as something that wasn't his fault. Somehow all the problems of the late 70's were attributed to him.


I remember my really leftist (I mean card carrying socialist type though an outstanding teacher nonetheless) history teacher in my freshman year of high school saying the day after the 1980 election, "Well, at least one of the guys I wanted to lose lost."
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Postby drsmooth » Fri Sep 26, 2008 20:15:58

jerseyhoya wrote:I don't think that's true. Plenty of people in Germany are dumb too.


it's relatively hard to find a european who does not speak 2 or more languages. By that admittedly narrow metric alone the 'dumb' german has a leg up on the 'dumb' american, because it's not just being dumb, it's being insufficiently open, by training or temperament, to a variety of worldview-shaping inputs.
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Postby jerseyhoya » Fri Sep 26, 2008 20:16:52

drsmooth wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:I don't think that's true. Plenty of people in Germany are dumb too.


it's fairly hard to find a european who does not speak 2 or more languages. By that admittedly narrow metric alone the 'dumb' german has a leg up on the 'dumb' american, because it's not just being dumb, it's being insufficiently open, by training or temperament, to a variety of worldview-shaping inputs.


Meh. They carried out the Holocaust. That marks them down in my book.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Sep 26, 2008 20:21:06

jerseyhoya wrote:
drsmooth wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:I don't think that's true. Plenty of people in Germany are dumb too.


it's fairly hard to find a european who does not speak 2 or more languages. By that admittedly narrow metric alone the 'dumb' german has a leg up on the 'dumb' american, because it's not just being dumb, it's being insufficiently open, by training or temperament, to a variety of worldview-shaping inputs.


Meh. They carried out the Holocaust. That marks them down in my book.


People in Britain suck about as bad at languages as Americans. And, thanks to our immigrants, lots of Americans speak a language other than English.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Fri Sep 26, 2008 20:59:04

Gov. Sarah Palin, dressed in jeans and a Phillies jacket, spent an hour this evening shaking hands, signing autographs and posing for photographs with supporters crowded inside the Irish Pub at 2007 Walnut St. in Center City. :!:

READY TO BE PRESIDENT

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Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:00:30

jerseyhoya wrote:Gov. Sarah Palin, dressed in jeans and a Phillies jacket, spent an hour this evening shaking hands, signing autographs and posing for photographs with supporters crowded inside the Irish Pub at 2007 Walnut St. in Center City. :!:

READY TO BE PRESIDENT


It would have cracked me up if she went to Monks instead. There are some people I would have had to mock.

I'm going to try to watch some of this debate now.
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Postby dajafi » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:08:33

Not watching. Maybe the replay on CSPAN later.

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Postby Trent Steele » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:11:09

TenuredVulture wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:Gov. Sarah Palin, dressed in jeans and a Phillies jacket, spent an hour this evening shaking hands, signing autographs and posing for photographs with supporters crowded inside the Irish Pub at 2007 Walnut St. in Center City. :!:

READY TO BE PRESIDENT


It would have cracked me up if she went to Monks instead. There are some people I would have had to mock.

I'm going to try to watch some of this debate now.



Are you ripping on Monks?
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Postby jerseyhoya » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:11:29

I watched McCain's opening spheel.

It was something to the effect of: Ted Kennedy is about to die, we are doing bipartisan things, lots more work to do with the economy, and no dependence on foreign oil.

I think that was enough of the debate for me.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:12:00

Trent Steele wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:Gov. Sarah Palin, dressed in jeans and a Phillies jacket, spent an hour this evening shaking hands, signing autographs and posing for photographs with supporters crowded inside the Irish Pub at 2007 Walnut St. in Center City. :!:

READY TO BE PRESIDENT


It would have cracked me up if she went to Monks instead. There are some people I would have had to mock.

I'm going to try to watch some of this debate now.



Are you ripping on Monks?


Not at all. An old friend married the owner.
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Postby kruker » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:12:15

I guess Lehrer isn't going to hold them to the questions asked. At least the debates haven't changed.
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Postby FTN » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:13:55

kruker wrote:I guess Lehrer isn't going to hold them to the questions asked. At least the debates haven't changed.


hes begging that they talk to each other too. its making me feel kind of uncomfortable

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Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:15:12

I think Lehrer is actually doing a good job.
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Postby Woody » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:15:47

McCain's got jokes!

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Postby FTN » Fri Sep 26, 2008 21:17:55

I think I just saw LaExile run behind the podiums

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