should charles griffen manuel be fireD?

by **z ipper** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 08:05:07

very surprised at the results. remember pp.com in '04? that was a constant bowa bitch-fest after every game. i guess charlie's more likable so it's ok for him to undermine season after season.

by **Vote for Kalas** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 08:27:44

Well, Bowa had all of Manuel's weaknesses without any of his strengths and was an asshat to boot.

Manuel is a good improvement over Bowa, but for me it has also been a gradual realization the manager does not have that much of an impact overall and that the pieces the GM assembles and the performance of the players play larger roles.

Gillick gave Manuel a flawed team again and our big offensive guns plus most of the new additions Gillick made have either struggled all year or been wildly inconsistent. Trading for Blanton was just insult to injury.

by **rolex** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 09:03:55

The worst scenario, IMO, is that the FO keeps Manuel w/o extending him so he goes into next year on the last leg of his deal. Then the team starts off badly playing like it has for the last two months and then the FO decides to drop Manuel mid season.

by **TenuredVulture** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 09:16:57

Gillick isn't really a disappointment, in my opinion--it was pretty clear he was not going to be a gm to take the Phils to the next level pretty early on in his tenure. I know lots of people defended on the basis of his track record, but while he's made a few decent trades, overall, the team has stood still.

Mean while, they've been caught by a team with Ed Wade as GM.

by **BuddyGroom** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:54:37

I voted no, but I would not strongly oppose a new direction - new GM, new manager and coaching staff, etc.

This offseason is going to tell us a lot about this franchise's expectations and ambitions - not that I think it will tell us anything we don't already suspect.

by **traderdave** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:31:35

You could bring Joe McCarthy back from the dead to manage the Phils and it wouldn't matter if Amaro ends up GM after Gillick leaves.

Cholly is near the bottom of the "blame list", IMHO, but if this team has quit playing for him it is time to move on. I would bet 90-95% of the players would like to see him stay.

by **Stay_Disappointed** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:30:39

BuddyGroom wrote:I voted no, but I would not strongly oppose a new direction - new GM, new manager and coaching staff, etc.

This offseason is going to tell us a lot about this franchise's expectations and ambitions - not that I think it will tell us anything we don't already suspect.

My guess is that Amaro get hires and everything stays the same. How will the front office spin 2008 though? They can't really be happy with missing the playoffs, yet the hiring of Amaro signals more of the same. If this team as presently constructed can't win more than 90 games in a weak NL how are they going to do better next year with less talent (assuming less payroll).

by **Trent Steele** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:46:46

Vote for Kalas wrote:Good posts dajafi and kruker....

Gillick has been a massive dissapointment and Amaro or Arb looming as the replacement scare me to death.

Manuel probably will be the scapegoat, but he was given a flawed team again this year and he will probably nurse at least 88 wins out of it again in a pretty competitive division.

Nothing will really change unfortunately. Burrell will be let go and will not be replaced with comparable talent. The pitching will be Hamels/Myers and the 5th Beatles again. Madson will leave and we will probably bring Mesa back to replace him. The offensive load again will be dropped on Utley/Howard and Rollins to carry with the usual black holes of Feliz, Bruntlett, Taguchi, Ruiz, Jenkins allowed to hang around.

Unless the Phillies invest in their market better and generate some new revenue streams, their payroll ceiling will pretty much be only slightly higher than this year and we will not be able to surround the core with better talent and help improve the pitching as we need to.

I agree with the general points made, but where is Madson going? Is he retiring?

by **BuddyGroom** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:52:24

Trent Steele wrote:
I agree with the general points made, but where is Madson going? Is he retiring?

I guess some extreme pessimists think the Phillies will non-tender Madson, rather than go to arbitration with him. I can't see that happening.

by **Vote for Kalas** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:58:06

Trent Steele wrote:
Vote for Kalas wrote:Good posts dajafi and kruker....

Gillick has been a massive dissapointment and Amaro or Arb looming as the replacement scare me to death.

Manuel probably will be the scapegoat, but he was given a flawed team again this year and he will probably nurse at least 88 wins out of it again in a pretty competitive division.

Nothing will really change unfortunately. Burrell will be let go and will not be replaced with comparable talent. The pitching will be Hamels/Myers and the 5th Beatles again. Madson will leave and we will probably bring Mesa back to replace him. The offensive load again will be dropped on Utley/Howard and Rollins to carry with the usual black holes of Feliz, Bruntlett, Taguchi, Ruiz, Jenkins allowed to hang around.

Unless the Phillies invest in their market better and generate some new revenue streams, their payroll ceiling will pretty much be only slightly higher than this year and we will not be able to surround the core with better talent and help improve the pitching as we need to.

I agree with the general points made, but where is Madson going? Is he retiring?

My bad...I thought Madson had enough time to control his own destiny, but it appears he has 1 more arb year. I think the negotiations will be tough and Madson/Boras will try to get out of town so he can try starting again somewhere else.

by **BuddyGroom** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:59:12

Warszawa wrote:
BuddyGroom wrote:I voted no, but I would not strongly oppose a new direction - new GM, new manager and coaching staff, etc.

This offseason is going to tell us a lot about this franchise's expectations and ambitions - not that I think it will tell us anything we don't already suspect.

My guess is that Amaro get hires and everything stays the same. How will the front office spin 2008 though? They can't really be happy with missing the playoffs, yet the hiring of Amaro signals more of the same. If this team as presently constructed can't win more than 90 games in a weak NL how are they going to do better next year with less talent (assuming less payroll).

One word in your reply is everything I fear from the Phillies - and that word is not Amaro. It's spin.

It looks at least possible the Marlins are going to have yet another firesale, with 18 guys due for arbitration. Will the Phillies be too busy coming up with their latest spin ("a return to previous form by Joe Blanton will be as good as a free agency pick-up") that, as usual, the Mets, Red Sox and others have scooped up the Marlins' goodies before the Phillies are even aware they're available?

Last offseason was a perfect example, in retrospect, of this organization's lack of quick-response aggression. Even the moves that worked out - like Chad Durbin - were of the "do our shopping after the real contenders are done" variety - and that's how you end up with Geoff Jenkins and So Taguchi and Joe Blanton.

It's undeniable that part of the Phillies problem is they don't have the same organizational depth from which to deal that the Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, Cubs, etc., have. But it's more than that.

When the Mets perceive a weakness, they get Carlos Beltran. They get Johan Santana. Whereas, time and again, the Phillies settle. With the revenue being generated by this fanbase and the new ballpark, that has to change. But it almost certainly won't.

If Burrell isn't going to be re-signed, if Howard is going to be traded, how nice would Josh Willingham or Mike Jacobs or Cody Ross look in red pinstripes? We'll probably never know.

by **smitty** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 14:11:56

The only team in the National League that really addresses its flaws is the Cubs. The rest of the league has guys like Endy Chavez and Uranus Reyes and Juan Pierre and Eric Gagne and Craig Counsell and Cesar Izturis and Adam Kennedy and guys like that in important roles. Every single team except the Cubs are like that.

The strategy in the entire league seems to be to put together a team that can maybe win 90 games if things go well and hope things go well. The Cubs are the exception it seems. The Rich Harden trade was a big one. They were a team that didn't get on base and they reshaped their squad into one that leads the league in OBP.

The rest of the contenders have some very good players and a bunch of bailing wire and spit holding the rest of the team together.

Also, the manager has a huge impact on the performance of the team. The fact that the Mets were bad and changed managers and then played very, very well isn't just coincidence. The manager is the team leader and he is critical to the taeam's success or lack thereof. I'm not really talking about tactical decisions. The manager's effect on the team is much, much greater then tactical decisions.

I don't know if Manuel should be fired or not. The team seems to be treading water. Manuel has been at the helm for a while. I'm sure there are at least a few guys out there that can get the team to perform better. There almost always are. I'm not all that confident in the Phils' ability to identify one of them though.

by **philliesphhan** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 15:36:15

EndlessSummer wrote:Also, I just remembered the move that turned me on Charlie: the Burrell late game substitution. That's been him, all year. It's been monumentally stupid, and though we don't know how many games it cost them, it certainly bit them in the ass numerous times.

The thing that was really annoying about this was he was doing this rather frequently when Burrell was THE hottest hitter on the team. Now that Burrell is sucking, he doesn't seem to even do it as much.

by **swishnicholson** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 15:45:15

philliesphhan wrote:The thing that was really annoying about this was he was doing this rather frequently when Burrell was THE hottest hitter on the team. Now that Burrell is sucking, he doesn't seem to even do it as much.

Well, I think that's because unfortunately we don't seem to be ahead toward the end of the game as much.

by **Phan In Phlorida** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 15:48:24

smitty wrote:Also, the manager has a huge impact on the performance of the team. The fact that the Mets were bad and changed managers and then played very, very well isn't just coincidence. The manager is the team leader and he is critical to the taeam's success or lack thereof. I'm not really talking about tactical decisions. The manager's effect on the team is much, much greater then tactical decisions.

I don't know if Manuel should be fired or not. The team seems to be treading water. Manuel has been at the helm for a while. I'm sure there are at least a few guys out there that can get the team to perform better. There almost always are. I'm not all that confident in the Phils' ability to identify one of them though.

Sad thing is... the time where firing Manuel could have had a positive impact on this season has past. A month ago, maybe. It's too late now.

by **philliesphhan** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 16:36:12

swishnicholson wrote:
philliesphhan wrote:The thing that was really annoying about this was he was doing this rather frequently when Burrell was THE hottest hitter on the team. Now that Burrell is sucking, he doesn't seem to even do it as much.

Well, I think that's because unfortunately we don't seem to be ahead toward the end of the game as much.

Actually Burrell's sucking may play a bigger part. It seemed for a while there whenever Burrell would get a single/walk/double/whatever in the 7th inning or later, he was coming out for a pinch runner.

by **z ipper** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 01:04:25

lol me; sry charlie

i might have been wrong her?

by **ReadingPhilly** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 01:09:51

i cringed because i figured i wrote something negative.

sorry chuck, i'm just an angry fuck sometimes when it comes to the phils.

i love you, you big old lug.

by **FTN** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 01:20:57

voted no

by **WilliamC** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 01:24:48

We gon hit, and uh uh, we gon' win World Championship!

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