Phillies, Werth Avoid Arbitration

Postby DiamondDerby » Mon Jan 07, 2008 21:12:41

smitty wrote:Werth really isn't a AAAA type. He is a pretty good big league player whose career was stalled by a wrist problem. It looks like there's a good chance he's back on track.

TJ Bohn is a AAAA player. He doesn't have nearly the chance of putting up a good season as Werth does. He's not nearly as good. Bohn can be a decent 5th outfielder type. Werth can start for you and play all three OF positions and help you. If you have Bohn out there getting 350 at bats or more he is going to hurt your production I think.

Snelling is a big league hitter if he can stay healthy. But you don't want to be in a position to have to count on him. He just can't stay healthy. If you're lucky he can give you a good year if he does happen to be uninjured for a year.

You can take a chance on a AAAA guy if you don't have any other good options. I mean if you were going to go into a season with Angel Pagan or someone like that holding down a key outfield spot then, yeah, take a look at Ben Johnson or someone.

But Werth is a good option. He can give you 350-400 ABs and give you some good production. And he's pretty good defensively to boot. AAAA guys aren't really like that. Either they won't hit quite enough (like a Langerhans or they have some glove problems or both. Guys like Restovich and Watson are AAAA players. Not Werth in my view.


Good description of the difference between Werth and some other players. Phils are paying him for what he did last year and what they project him to produce, if he remains healthy. It's an investment with a potential to pay back much faster than a draft choice--like in three months. He can be a good RH platoon hitter for multiple years, maybe even start if last year was just the beginning of his comeback from injury.

Lumping him in with AAAAs is not swiftest statement I have seen.
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Postby Shore » Mon Jan 07, 2008 23:07:09

Ben Broussard, 31 years old, career .267 / .328 / .458 hitter, only plays 1B.

Career highs are .289, 21 homers, 82 RBI, 61 Runs, 52 BB, 103 K. Again, he's 31.

Made $3.5M last year, for 240 poor AB (.734 OPS, for a 1b).

Avoided arbirtration yesterday by signing for $3.85M.


Werth's contract is wonderful.

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Postby Laexile » Tue Jan 08, 2008 00:10:07

Werth has 4 years 102 days. This is his second eligible season. Willy Mo got $1.88 million with 4, 101. Nick Punto got $1.8 million with 4, 51. Jamey Carroll got $1.7 million with 4, 20. Xavier Nady got $2.15 million with 3, 59. Ryan Freel got $1.7 million with 3, 140. His salary isn't $500k higher than necessary.
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Postby Laexile » Tue Jan 08, 2008 02:26:58

Arbitration awards are based on what the player did the previous season. Missing a year isn't relevant. But to answer your hypothesis, no they didn't.

Werth has 1,129. Nick Punto had 1,175. Willy Mo Pena had 1,204. Xavier Nady had 1,357. Jamey Carroll had 1,487, and Ryan Freel had 1,723. So Freel and maybe Carroll had significantly more. None of the players was more accomplished than Werth either. Nady and Pena had a slightly higher career OPS. The others were all lower. Carroll and Punto were significantly
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Postby Shore » Tue Jan 08, 2008 03:36:37

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/all-about-arbitration/

According to the Basic Agreement, an arbitrator is supposed to consider several things when deciding upon a case. Most importantly, he/she is directed to consider:

-The player's contribution to his team
-His previous salary
-The salaries of players in a similar class

The last two points are extremely important -- in arbitration, players are not all equal. When making a case for a player, the arbitrators are instructed to consider only the salaries of players with the same amount of major league experience, or one year more.

Here is the exact wording from the current Basic Agreement regarding this point:


The arbitration panel shall, except for a Player with five or more years of Major League service, give particular attention, for comparative salary purposes, to the contracts of Players with Major League service not exceeding one annual service group above the Player's annual service group. This shall not limit the ability of a Player or his representative, because of special accomplishment, to argue the equal relevance of salaries of Players without regard to service, and the arbitration panel shall give whatever weight to such argument as is deemed appropriate.


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Postby Laexile » Tue Jan 08, 2008 04:25:29

Uncle Milty wrote:
Laexile wrote:Arbitration awards are based on what the player did the previous season.

Absolutely false.

Arbitration awards are not based solely on previous season performance. I forget the exact language but length of career, consistency, salary history, health, leadership and even fan appeal are factored.

I'm sure that teams and players can argue all of those things but performance and service time are the factors that seem to actually decide a player's salary.

You started this with a belief that they are paying Werth more than he'd get in arbitration. You have players with comparable service time and what they got in 2007. They didn't have more plate appearances. There's nothing penalizing a guy for missing a season due to injury, consistency, leadership, and fan appeal.

If you want though you can say "The player's contribution to his team" covers all those things and that Werth is somehow deficient in these areas compared to Nick Punto, Xavier Nady, and Jamey Carroll and that's why he's getting $500k more than necessary.
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Postby seke2 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 09:35:06

meh, allright, you guys convinced me. good deal. yay gillick.

i guess i really just don't like werth and i honestly expect him to put up numbers a LOT closer to his career averages this year than what we saw last year
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Postby phorever » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:02:44

seke2 wrote:i guess i really just don't like werth and i honestly expect him to put up numbers a LOT closer to his career averages this year than what we saw last year


why? and why? his minor league numbers were good, his last two healthy seasons in the majors have been excellent and he's still in his prime. i just don't see any basis for not liking this player.
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Postby seke2 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:24:01

i dislike his mechanics and his approach at the plate. of course, i've thought the same thing about coste and he's proved me wrong over the course of 2 years now.

also, i saw him be a dick to a 6 year old at spring training, so that's probably part of it, even though i want to be impartial. see story here:

viewtopi ... &start=105.html

i hope werth proves me wrong on the field.
Letting Roy Halladay loose against the National League this year was like locking a hungry wolf inside a garage full of kittens. - Neyer

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